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Checkman
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Reged: 15/03/08
Posts: 256
Loc: Idaho
Westley Richards more popular in United States?
      #100732 - 29/03/08 11:40 AM

In my reading it seems that I find more references to Americans ( who use English double rifles ) using Westley Richards double rifles than any others. Mind you I am talking about English doubles.I know Elmer Keith was a big fan of the Westley Richards double in .476 WR. I believe his model had detachable locks and a single trigger.

As I look over the various websites it also seems that Westley Richards is more receptive to the North American shooter.The WR website provides a currency convertor to translate British Pounds to U.S dollars and it appears that most of the used rifles are stored at the company's North American property.You sure don't get that on the H&H site.Heck on the WR site you can design your own double or bolt action and get an idea of how much it will cost you. It's fun. I like it.Nothing like fantasy.

The biggest thing I observed is that Holland & Holland has it's North American showroom in New York City. Westley Richards has it's American showroom in Montana. Just seems a little more central to me in both physical placement as well as attitude. While there is some very serious money in Montana it sure isn't Manhattan with it's blue blood attitude. More down to Earth.

Did Westley Richards make a company decision to go after the North American shooter years ago? Or is Westley Richards just not as aristocratic in it's outlook as Holland & Holland?

Just curious.

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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Westley Richards more popular in United States? [Re: Checkman]
      #100745 - 29/03/08 01:29 PM

Quote:

The biggest thing I observed is that Holland & Holland has it's North American showroom in New York City. Westley Richards has it's American showroom in Montana. Just seems a little more central to me in both physical placement as well as attitude. While there is some very serious money in Montana it sure isn't Manhattan with it's blue blood attitude. More down to Earth.

Did Westley Richards make a company decision to go after the North American shooter years ago? Or is Westley Richards just not as aristocratic in it's outlook as Holland & Holland?

Just curious.




Based on what I know, W/R moved from their previous office in southeastern US to Montana as a result of corporate restructuring and other "family" issues...

As to more popular, a W/R can typically be had for a much lower price than the H&H's and therefore are more readily affordable to more of the population..IMHO..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
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Re: Westley Richards more popular in United States? [Re: Ripp]
      #100748 - 29/03/08 02:04 PM



How about they moved after the
old WR was raided by the BATF ?

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3595
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Westley Richards more popular in United States? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #100753 - 29/03/08 06:44 PM

The American market can be very 'trendy' regarding firearms. A Greener shotgun will attract a flurry of bidding at auction, whereas a Leeson or Turner may pass virtually unnoticed but for a very few cognoscenti.

Nevertheless, the volume rifle-makers in the UK were Westley Richards, Jeffery, Wilkes, and a few others, who made primarily high-quality boxlocks which form the bulk of the DR market. I suspect most Holland rifles offered for sale are sidelocks, which place them in a more select buyer group, not nearly as prolific as the former.

This may explain in part the disparity between WR and H&H, Checkman. I don't think geographic location of the US agencies would have that great an influence.

Anyway, not Gospel, just my thoughts.....

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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9.3x57
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Re: Westley Richards more popular in United States? [Re: Marrakai]
      #100767 - 30/03/08 12:21 AM

RIPP, more please, I know you hang out there and the few guns you don't buy you wear the bluing slam off from all the handling you do there in the showroom!!

Seriously, though, Montana is a strange State. It has a population of extremes, with many progun wealthy folks who live there or have homes there, and of course, many wealthy folks who hail from the other side of the moon as regards guns and hunting, etc. Idaho is similar, minus the money...

Bozeman, on the surface of it, seems remote, but I bet is a great environment for W/R, particularly with the advent of on-line shopping and advertising of high-end guns. On a different note, I drove thru there last summer for the first time in 15 years. Wow. What to say? Where'd it all come from? My son felt like he was in New York City.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Ripp
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Posts: 16072
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Re: Westley Richards more popular in United States? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #100781 - 30/03/08 02:02 AM

9.3x57

Bozeman has exploded in the past 15 to 20 years with populations basically tripling..home prices tripling as well with land prices that are seriously 10 fold of what they were in 1990---great place to live IF you got in at the right time, invested correctly and have a good job...otherwise, really don't know how one could make a living here on "normal income"...while I realize our prices are still not what they were/are in California--we have received the moniker of Bozangeles...indicative of prices and change in cultures...There is a lot of money in this community, it is thought of as Montana's Vail..with the ski areas and amenities now available...in fact recently an article was in the local paper showing this county as the wealthiest in the state per capita..

I really don't hang out there that much as I used to. IMHO, the prices for old english doubles seems rediculous. Not to upset anyone on this site-but quite frankly I have chosen to invest my money in investment property and land when the opportunity arises...knock on wood but to date it seems to be working...having said that, I do own one W/R double in .470 that is an absolute delight to shoot..and if some of my other dealings pan out better than expected, I will probably by another in either 500 or 577. The guys there are really great to visit with, and on occasion, I will go out and test fire doubles that are on consignment with Kevin. This has allowed me to shoot guns I would have otherwise never been exposed too. I shot one of Bill Rugers original .470's --absolutely beautiful weapon... have shot numerous 500 and 577's along with quite a few 450.400's as well. Have shot Hollands, Rigby's, W/R, along with several others including the lower end models. Honestly the W/R and Rigby's are my favorites to shoot.

One needs to keep in mind, they are a business and like all businesses, look to maximize their profit and will do so to the limits of what the market will bear...what the top mark is, I am not sure we are there yet..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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Checkman
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Reged: 15/03/08
Posts: 256
Loc: Idaho
Re: Westley Richards more popular in United States? [Re: Ripp]
      #100819 - 30/03/08 08:10 AM

As a proud and patriotic American gunowner I have no problem with the observation that many of my fellow countrymen are very trendy.Gunowners are no exception. I myself was bitten by the GlOCK bug back in the nineties. I got older and matured, but not before I bought a couple - like so many others.

I was thinking about some of the points that were brought up, but it's always good to get another perspective. We do have a Cabelas just down the road in Boise and that store actually does sell the occassional DR. In the past the only English DR that I saw in the Boise store were a couple Westley Richards and they sold.Combine that with the two Westley Richards that are on display in the Elmer Keith museum (also in the Boise Cabelas) and I started wondering about the American preference for English doubles.

So Westley Richards is a higher volume rifle maker then H&H. I didn't know that. When I think about English double Rifles I have this image of a seventy year old Englishman wearing a leather apron and working over a roaring fire while a kettle of tea "brews" in the corner of his workshop.The English equivlant of the Japanese swordmaster.One rifle every 18 months.

Silly, but there it is. I have to remind myself that they are a modern manufacturer with customers across the world. Thanks.

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
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Re: Westley Richards more popular in United States? [Re: Checkman]
      #100822 - 30/03/08 08:51 AM


Checkman

Your "image" is a good one.

Just don't forget that alot of WR Shotguns were made
in their factory by another contracted company in the 60's
and 70's.

Just can't think of the name ATM - Robin ????

Anyone help ?

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: Westley Richards more popular in United States? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #101050 - 01/04/08 05:27 AM

I really don't think the Westley Richards doubles are better represented in the USA market than other makes of Britt doubles. In fact most of the double rifles sold to people who hunt with them, seem to be European rifles, rather than Britt, even in the very costly ones. Amoung the Britt doubles I find A&N, I. Hollis, and others far more in evidence on the used market, than even the WR rifles. The DRSS has many members world wide, and This holds true for the folks from other countries as well, though it seems OZ is the exception. Of course the makes like Merkel, Heym, Krieghoff, Chapuis, and B. Searcy far out sell anything from the UK, over the WR rifles, and ten times over the H&H,UK Rigby, and Purdy,because of the rediculous prices for the last three! Because of those exorbitant priceing of the H&H, Rigby (UK), and Purdy, very few are sold here except to collectors, and most are never hunted.

Though I can't aford the last three high dollar rifles, it makes little difference to me anyway, because I prefere Westley Richards doubles to them anyway. I have never picked up a WR double that didn't fit me well, or one that turned out to be inaccurate!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Paul
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Re: Westley Richards more popular in United States? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #101091 - 01/04/08 02:04 PM

Could it be Americans just love the name? Maybe the DB rifle fans there are also into that sleepy old game we still play in the Commonwealth and think WR sounds like a West Indian cricketer?

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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
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Re: Westley Richards more popular in United States? [Re: Checkman]
      #101097 - 01/04/08 02:53 PM

I think most consider WR a top tier maker - I certainly do. What adds to their popularity is, I think, their guns seem more accessible to mortals.
I don't see much reference in the literature of a PH having Purdey or Holland send out a rifle to Mombasa for them to collect at the end of a long safari. Seems like WR, like Jeffrey, was more of a working gun maker intended for real hunters in the know, and the Purdeys and Hollands were more likely to be sold to their wealthy clients.
Maybe this is just my perception. For me, a good Westley Richards is more desirable than a Purdey or an H&H.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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vigillinus
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Re: Westley Richards more popular in United States? [Re: Huvius]
      #101100 - 01/04/08 03:24 PM

Is WR even up with the big three in quality of workmanship, fit and finish?

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Westley Richards more popular in United States? [Re: vigillinus]
      #101120 - 01/04/08 09:41 PM

Quote:

Is WR even up with the big three in quality of workmanship, fit and finish?



Not in my opinion.

Don't get me wrong. I am not disparaging Westley Richards or their product. My point is this: WR made guns and rifles that covered the waterfront from basic "beaters" to fairly high end models. WR also made guns and rifles for the trade. But even on the high end the product lacks the overall fit and finish of a Purdey, to say nothing about the design.

If you compare a WR sidelock ejector made to their high standards to a Purdey, the WR is leagues behind. That doesn't mean that the WR is a bad gun. It simply means that WR builds to a different standard. It also sells for considerably less, thus appealing to a different clientele.

Sinner, what say you on the topic?

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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dnovo
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Re: Westley Richards more popular in United States? [Re: CptCurl]
      #101123 - 01/04/08 10:46 PM

I would have to agree, even though I own a fairly rare WR sidelock (they only made a small number in contrast to their 'claim to fame', the detachable boxlock or droplock.) I would compare it in quality ,fit, finish, and quality of engraving to other upper end British makers of the period (Rigby, Jeffery, Lang, etc) but just a hair shy of a Purdey or H&H Royal. Still, I didn't pay an H&H price for it, as Capt Curl correctly points out. Not plebeian by any stretch of the imagination, and clearly nobility, not royalty though. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Westley Richards more popular in United States? [Re: CptCurl]
      #101134 - 02/04/08 01:18 AM

In my opinion, the Westley droplock rifle is one of the best out there. Yes there engraving of animals was cartoon like, but I have to say the rest of the gun is top tier. I have a lot of guns to compare to my Westleys, and the hi grades are as neat as any of my top Purdeys. Yes they made a lot of different grades of guns, unlike Purdey or Boss. However, they can't be considered a lower tier company with the following they had.

Also, H&H was commissioned by WR a few years back to manufacture a droplock and couldn't do it. Kevin and I had a good laugh on that one.. Go figure.

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BigFiveJack
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Re: Westley Richards more popular in United States? [Re: ]
      #101151 - 02/04/08 04:30 AM

Is it correct that a WR Drop Lock can

NOT be made with intercepting sears?

--------------------
Cordially,
Jack

NRA Endowment Member
DRSS Member

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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Westley Richards more popular in United States? [Re: BigFiveJack]
      #101156 - 02/04/08 06:15 AM

Quote:

Is it correct that a WR Drop Lock can

NOT be made with intercepting sears?




Yes that is correct. However, as long as the gun and locks are in good condition, and the stock isn't loose there is no need for them with this design.

The Westley Richards droplock is perhaps the finest action for a double rifle ever made, next to a pre-war Rigby. There was no expense spared in the manufacture of the Westley droplock, and once upon a time its was the most expensive action to produce in London or Birmingham. More than a Purdey, Holland, or Boss best sidelock ejector.

Many people are unaware of that little fact.

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Checkman
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Re: Westley Richards more popular in United States? [Re: Paul]
      #101157 - 02/04/08 06:20 AM

Quote:

Could it be Americans just love the name? Maybe the DB rifle fans there are also into that sleepy old game we still play in the Commonwealth and think WR sounds like a West Indian cricketer?



That is funny. I don't even understand Cricket ( I listen to the BBC World when I'm working the nightshift and the sports section leaves me completely puzzled ) but that's funny. I have to admit Westley Richards has a ring to it.

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500Nitro
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Re: Westley Richards more popular in United States? [Re: Checkman]
      #101159 - 02/04/08 06:26 AM


Sinner

It's interesting that quite a few people put a WR Droplock
into the "Sidelock" quality level - which considering the workmanship isn't really surprising.

"and once upon a time its was the most expensive action to produce in London."

I thought the factory was in Birmingham ?


Yes, WR does have a ring to it, the same as H&H.

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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Westley Richards more popular in United States? [Re: Checkman]
      #101161 - 02/04/08 06:31 AM

Quote:

I have to admit Westley Richards has a ring to it.



Funny, I named one of Labs Westley Richards, and my 7 year old pointer is named James Purdey.

The managing director for H&H was at a Grouse hunt with me last year, and he was trying to bribe me to name the next one Holland & Holland. I told him I would if they could stop making big bore rifles that come off face in 15 rounds.

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dnovo
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Re: Westley Richards more popular in United States? [Re: ]
      #101163 - 02/04/08 06:36 AM

Quote:

In my opinion, the Westley droplock rifle is one of the best out there. Yes there engraving of animals was cartoon like, but I have to say the rest of the gun is top tier.



100% agreement. Any time I get the need for a DR fix, I pull out my first decade 20th Century 476 Droplock and gaze on it for a while before turning it over to take out the locks and play with them a bit. (Yes, I DO know how to reset them, no I do NOT use a pliers or otherwise force them. Yes, I had a longtime WR owner school me very carefully in how to do it. And no, I did NOT get it right the first time, the second, . . . ) A brilliant bit of engineering, along with several others WR was responsible for. And, also most fortunately, my 476 has no animals, just lovely scrolls, etc. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Westley Richards more popular in United States? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #101165 - 02/04/08 06:42 AM

500,

Yep your correct the factory was in Birmingham, I was referring to the region in general terms. Besides 120 miles is just apples and oranges my brother..

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500Nitro
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Re: Westley Richards more popular in United States? [Re: ]
      #101169 - 02/04/08 07:01 AM

Quote:

500,

Yep your correct the factory was in Birmingham, I was referring to the region in general terms. Besides 120 miles is just apples and oranges my brother..




Yep, by Australian and (maybe ) US Standard,
the UK is like small !

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Nakihunter
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Re: Westley Richards more popular in United States? [Re: Checkman]
      #101182 - 02/04/08 08:49 AM

It is easy to understand cricket - just watch how the Indians beat the Aussies recently!

The English beat the Kiwis - but that's not the same!

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.

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JabaliHunter
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Re: Westley Richards more popular in United States? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #101236 - 02/04/08 11:09 PM

Considering the quality of some sidelocks, that may be damning with faint praise
I think 'best' quality would be more appropriate. IMHO there's no comparison between a top quality WR detachable lock and pretty much all the other boxlocks, and alot of those are pretty nice too! For me, if I were only to have one DR in my life, I would find it tough to choose between a H&H Royal and a WR detachable lock, but I would probably go with the WR...


I've always had a soft spot for WR because I grew up in the Midlands and know that it has always been the real heart of British industry and manufacturing. Some of the craftsmen there can easily rival anywhere else in the world. Plus, even when I was a kid WR used to go out of their way to reply to my letters and send me information about guns, rifles, hunting and cartridges. Its just a more 'real' and 'down to earth' kind of attitude that you get in that part of the world. No false airs and graces, but huge pride in the quality of workmanship. The only other place that holds similar affection for me is a fishing tackle shop in Perthshire, but that is another story! I have an affection for H&H too, but always feel that their interest in me was much more dependent on how much I spent - a much more 'London' attitude!

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