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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing

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AkMike
.416 member


Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
FYI Project
      #100434 - 27/03/08 03:42 AM

Found on Gunbroker and I have nothing to do with it.


http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=95553670

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand


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WCF
.275 member


Reged: 06/05/06
Posts: 61
Loc: georgia
Re: FYI Project [Re: AkMike]
      #100574 - 28/03/08 02:58 AM

Anybody got an opinion on this. Looks like a worth while effort. ????

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oupa
.300 member


Reged: 01/03/06
Posts: 127
Loc: Maryland,USA
Re: FYI Project [Re: WCF]
      #105572 - 19/05/08 12:56 PM

Hmmmmm, checking out the old posts I ran across this one. Thought it looked familiar and low and behold it IS.
http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=8617143

Obviously this guy either had the gun returned for some reason or the transaction was never finished???? This is the same gun and while the auction site and user name are different the location (GA.) is the same. Also different is the price! $600 in Mar. and now (minimum) $650.


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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3519
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: FYI Project [Re: oupa]
      #105579 - 19/05/08 01:58 PM

Not a word about overall weight so far. Those tubes have been left way too thick at the muzzles, most likely a barrel-heavy bitch unless they can be removed and turned down further.





The key to a lively, sweet-handling double is weight in the action and slim muzzles, not this 'lightweight' action and muzzle-heavy tubes.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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oupa
.300 member


Reged: 01/03/06
Posts: 127
Loc: Maryland,USA
Re: FYI Project [Re: Marrakai]
      #105787 - 21/05/08 11:55 PM

Yeah, I thought the light-weight action wasn't such good planning either. Sure would like to hear the story behind this one though. SOmebody did a lot of work to leave it at this stage.

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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: FYI Project [Re: Marrakai]
      #105801 - 22/05/08 03:03 AM

That was my first thought as well! This thing would likely handle like a well shaped railroad crosstie! The LCS action is weak for this purpose IMO, and would only be my choice over a Savage 311, which is not my choice eiter.

The $700 price is not too out of line, however, because the pair of Shilen barrels would cost about that much today as blanks! The action could be used to sleeve in a pair of rifled 20 ga shotgun barrels for a double slug gun, and the barrels used with a better action!

The above is what happens to most of the "SAVE MONEY" shotgun conversions, tackeled by by folks who don't really know what is involved in building a workable double rifle!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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WCF
.275 member


Reged: 06/05/06
Posts: 61
Loc: georgia
Re: FYI Project [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #105858 - 22/05/08 09:51 PM

OK, I have contacted the person who owns this one, the gentleman lives about 35 miles from me. I picked the gun up last night (haven't bought it yet). The guy is super nice and had the work done by a fellow in Washington State. The barrels are Shilen and measure around .500 at the muzzle and are 26 inches in length. They have been chambered, From the breech forward through the forearm area the diameter is almost a duplicate of the factory 16 ga barrels, from there it tapers to .500. This guy simply lost interest and quite honestly dosen't appear to have desire to finish. At this point I'm not qualified to make any determinations. He did state that the gun had been sold on another auction site and the deal didn't materialize. Since I'm just starting in this arena what are your thoughts? Seems quite a bit of work has been done to just leave it. One issue I see initially is the weight. If I put it on the scales it tops out around 9 lbs (too heavy).

wcf


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oupa
.300 member


Reged: 01/03/06
Posts: 127
Loc: Maryland,USA
Re: FYI Project [Re: WCF]
      #105904 - 23/05/08 09:39 AM

WCF, congratulations should you decide to keep the rifle. Actually nine pounds is probably about right in the finished rifle. There's still some weight to be added though! To my mind the barrels are too long. Should you choose to bob them you'll likely save more weight than you'll add in ribs, sights, furniture, etc... Shortening those barrels will also do wonders for improving the "feel" however you'll now end up with oversize (diameter) muzzles, which could negate the improvement that could have been possible had the barrels been made a more managable length before going this far. It's 45-70 is it not?

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WCF
.275 member


Reged: 06/05/06
Posts: 61
Loc: georgia
Re: FYI Project [Re: oupa]
      #105906 - 23/05/08 10:43 AM

oupa, thanks, I'm really uncertain what direction to go in. The caliber is 30-30 Winchester. The barrels are chambered and extractors fitted. The original forearm lug comes with the gun and fits perfectly. The wood is useable. The owner did state that the person who did the work stated that the right lock needed a stiffer mainspring as it inconsistently fired. I hope the gentlemen will nego the price further. I would like to try my hand at this one. Anyway I've told the owner I would either bring the gun or his money Saturday. I'll try to keep all posted.

wcf


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Bramble
.375 member


Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: FYI Project [Re: WCF]
      #106018 - 25/05/08 08:54 AM

Have a look at 30-40 Krag balistics, you might be well to run a reamer in there, it would give you a bit of extra power to suit the weight of the rifle and is a low pressure round.

As it is somebody elses project I would unsolder the barrels and check the quality of the work, it is no biggie as if it was done right they will be well tinned and go back together easily, if not it is well to know now.

Good luck

Regards


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450_366
.400 member


Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: FYI Project [Re: Bramble]
      #106041 - 25/05/08 08:11 PM

Quote:

Have a look at 30-40 Krag balistics, you might be well to run a reamer in there, it would give you a bit of extra power to suit the weight of the rifle and is a low pressure round.

As it is somebody elses project I would unsolder the barrels and check the quality of the work, it is no biggie as if it was done right they will be well tinned and go back together easily, if not it is well to know now.

Good luck

Regards




Yeas and when they are of turn them to a thinner profile.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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AkMike
.416 member


Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: FYI Project [Re: WCF]
      #106060 - 26/05/08 03:37 AM

WCF,
Is it possible that he said that the work was done be Joe of Oregon Barrels?
I found a reference to him about doing this kind of work.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand


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WCF
.275 member


Reged: 06/05/06
Posts: 61
Loc: georgia
Re: FYI Project [Re: AkMike]
      #106108 - 26/05/08 01:04 PM

He did not say who, just that the gentlemen was in Washington State. I returned the gun to the owner today and made him an offer which he did not accept. He said the BUY IT NOW price on the auction site was the lowest price. I believe 700.00 delievered. Anyway I passed, only because of funds (new baby). Rechambering to 30-40 never occurred to me, no matter at this point, two other gents were waiting when I returned the gun. I'll have all night to ponder if I should have jumped on this one. I must admit as an advid fan of the LC Smith shotgun this one sure calls to me. Thanks for all your input, I may have to re-consider now that the 30-40 has been thrown out there.

wcf


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WCF
.275 member


Reged: 06/05/06
Posts: 61
Loc: georgia
Re: FYI Project [Re: WCF]
      #106185 - 27/05/08 10:14 PM

Looks as though I may wind up with this one after all. I will respectfully need the assistance of some of the experts here. The first thing that comes to my mind is removing the barrels from the monobloc as suggested to ensure the work was done proper. Then to turn them down to a more manageable profile. The barrels measure a touch over 26 inches. What would a suitable length be. I plan on re-chambering to 30-40. The muzzles mike .500, what is a suitable diamter. I know the American Actions are not the favored choice however I'm willing to accept what may be. My only experience with the LC Smith is as a shotgun and the rotary locking system with the boss through the bottom of the action is strong. Strong enough for a rifle, I don't know. I plan on proofing from a safe distance. If this project holds together it would be hunted with yearly (whitetail deer). I would scope the gun as my eyes are old. The existing wood I plan to use for now as it is in excellent shape, but would plan a replacement(at a later date)if all works out. I'm not confident in my own ability for the entire project but hoping to use this as a learning process (learning curve). What should I expect the end weight to be (8-9 lbs??. As far as turning the barrels down further, it appears they were turned fairly close to match the monobloc already, this part is a weakness to me, I'm thinking I would be better served to farm this part out, what are some thought ons this and who would you suggest? Pardon my rambling, reserved excitment has a firm hold of my vision.

thanks in advance
wcf


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Bramble
.375 member


Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: FYI Project [Re: WCF]
      #106201 - 28/05/08 03:14 AM

OK

26 " barrels on this is about the same as 24" on a bolt gun. The .500 at the muzzle is not rediculous a lot of bolt guns are .600+.
I agree with Marrakai and others that it is not ideal, but then this is to be a cheep fun rifle I presume and not a masterpiece so I would not waste the time and money turning them down.
In any event people are only suggesting slimming them from the monoblock forward so you don't need to change that dimension. However are going to need a taper turning attachment and some considerible knowledge to set it up or it will cost you money to have it done.
I would leave well alone.

Pull the barrels check the soldering and reassemble.

As to strength I have done the sums and on CIP Piezo data ( 47,000 and 46,000 psi )and Lyman cartridge blueprints then the 30-40 works out at 4.89 long tons breach thrust and the 30-30 4.12 long tons breach thrust.
We do not have LC Smith actions, is this a 2 3/4" 16 gauge.? If so you are not a mile over that with the 30-30/30-40.

I would do the following to test it.

With all of the usual disclaimers etc.!!!

Find a max load in a reputible data book with the slowest non compressed powder. load 6 of that load with a bullet weighing 10% more than listed ie for a 170 grain load, use a 190 grain bullet.
Measure gun accuratly particualy any clearence on the bed and the action face. Put gun in a fixture. retire behind a wall with long peice of string, no don't just crouch down. Fire 3 left and rights and then re-measure. That 10% extra weight in the bullet approximates what the continentals do/did for proof.

Or

Load a max listed load and liberaly oil the cartridges before chambering them. What the British proof house did/does.

No it isent perfect science, but it is about the best you can do without expensive equiptment.

Re-measure and if all is as before and the gun is still tight, you can proceed to finish the gun.
If it moves even a fraction, then pull the barrels and bin the action. Please do not be tempted by the "its only 2 thou" If that action is no good and you want to continue I personaly would buy a 16 guage Baiakal and monoblock that, they are as tough as nails.

I would regulate it with a nice mid range load so as not to stress the gun over its lifetime. ie 30-30 170 grains @ 2100 fps 30-40 220 @ 2000 fps. I would personaly find a good quality (win, rem, fed) factory load in the mid range and regulate with that.

You will not make a silk purse out of it, but you can with diligence to the finishing have a usefull fun rifle, that will not disgrace you to show and provide years of interesting fun shooting.

All of the above is only my personal opinion based on what has gone before and not general recomendations in all circumstances, but I hope this helps.

Regards


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WCF
.275 member


Reged: 06/05/06
Posts: 61
Loc: georgia
Re: FYI Project [Re: Bramble]
      #106207 - 28/05/08 04:33 AM

Bramble,
thanks for the information and your honest opinion. Yes it is a 2 3/4" chamber. I actually planned for this to be a working gun, not a masterpiece of gunsmithing. If I keep the 30-30 chambering I had planned on regulating with the most common load avail around here 170 grain, Win or Remington. I'll pick it up this afternoon and will get started. I'll try to hone my skills at picture taking and post. I figure either way it might make fun reading from the backwoods of Georgia, Stay Tuned

Thanks to all


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