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JabaliHunter
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.303 British as a hunting calibre?
      #100190 - 25/03/08 01:33 AM

What is your experience with the .303 British? The calibre is popular in alot of parts of the world, but at its original factory load velocities it is often dismissed as a hunting round. I have used it successfully in a sporterised Enfield with factory loads, but am curious as to the round's potential with reloads in a modern single shot. Any thoughts?

(Added) Quote from the Norma website: Ballistics of proper loads for use in any gun that is in good condition are sufficiently similar to the 308 Winchester so that the 303 is suitable for precisely the same applications.


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9.3x57
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Re: .303 British as a hunting calibre? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #100193 - 25/03/08 02:13 AM

Dismissed?

Not sure what you mean by that.

I killed a bear with a .303, a No5 MKI Jungle Carbine once. The bear died. 180 grain Remington RNCL bullet. No complaints by me at all.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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JabaliHunter
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Re: .303 British as a hunting calibre? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #100201 - 25/03/08 03:22 AM

I agree with you - I have shot kudu, pigs and deer with it and found it very effective. However, some authors do not like it for medium and large game even at relatively short bushveld distances. For example, Gregor Woods does not recommend it for this purpose in his book Rifles for Africa, I think mainly on velocity/energy grounds. I know dozens of people that use it for this purpose though.

Do any of you use it for elk or moose in North America? If so, what loads are you using?


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DarylS
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Re: .303 British as a hunting calibre? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #100206 - 25/03/08 03:59 AM

I've a very close friend, who has always had at least a few .303's in his gun locker and curently probably closer to 150. The .303 Brit #3 was his first big game rifle and it's killing ability on moose made it a favourite of his. The primary ammo, if he could get it, was the 215gr. kling-kore Dominion ammo. I've built him numerous 'better' rifles from .30 cal. to .375 wildcats and currently a .458 2" for his guide backup rifle, but he's just as likely to grab a .303 or Smidt-Rubin 7.5x55 for a quick moose hunt with his kids as any other rifle in the locker.
: At this time, I'm re-barreling a P14 for him with a B.King .308 barrel, and chambering it with a .303 reamer, pilot ground to .300". This is so he can shoot .303 factory out of it if he so wishes, although the prime reason for the tight bore is so he can use 220gr. Hornadys in standard .303 brass, with accuracy. His current .303 FL die set, with an undersize expander ball that doesn't touch, FL sizes .303 brass perfectly for the .308" bullets. The undersize expander ball is merely to hold the primer ejector pin.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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JabaliHunter
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Re: .303 British as a hunting calibre? [Re: DarylS]
      #100208 - 25/03/08 04:24 AM

Thanks Daryl - this is something that I have thought of too. The tight bore would certainly give many more bullet options. How much damage would you do to a modern steel barrel though if you were to shoot .311s/.312s down a .308 tube? Is it just a case of cutting barrel life or does it represent higher risks of failure? Is it a stand-by option or someting you could do regularly?

Edited by JabaliHunter (25/03/08 04:29 AM)


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bonanza
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Re: .303 British as a hunting calibre? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #100230 - 25/03/08 09:30 AM

For God so loved the world that he gave us the 303.

"Originally designed as a black powder cartridge, the .303 British was the first loaded with a smokeless propellant called Cordite around 1892. The .303 served as a British military cartridge until the 1950's and at one time was an extremely popular big game cartridge. In the hands of farmers and natives, this cartridge with its long .311" bullet has probably killed more African game than any other."


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88MauSporter
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Re: .303 British as a hunting calibre? [Re: bonanza]
      #100239 - 25/03/08 10:31 AM

I certainly wish that more bullet makers ( in the US anyway) made the 215 grain RN .311-.312 .303 bullet for loading or in a factory load. I use the 180 grain RN .312 Hornady mostly in my .303 No.1 mkIIIs and a Sporter of the same action. I also use these in my 7.65 Mausers with good effect and accuracy.
I would load the 215 if it was more available. It has such a good reputation from my reading of early and mid 20th century hunters. The woodleighs would be great, but too expensive for me. I buy woodleigh for the 8mm and the .375. I economize on the .303s. If I had more hunting opportunity, maybe. I took a moose in Alaska in the early '70s with a 180 gr .303. But, between the eyes at 30 paces wasn't much of a test. He just dropped. Face on and high brush. A duh! look on his face. I sort of felt bad after, but he tasted pretty good.

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"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter


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CowboyCS
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Re: .303 British as a hunting calibre? [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #100243 - 25/03/08 11:18 AM

My wife's primary hunting rifle is .303 on an SMLE I sportorized for her. She has shot just about all of her medium and big game with it. I've worked up two loads for her 150gr for deer and smaller and then 180gr for elk and such. She's done very well with it, everything has been a oneshot kill. I've never tried the 215gr bullets.

C

--------------------
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9.3x57
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Re: .303 British as a hunting calibre? [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #100248 - 25/03/08 11:37 AM

Jabali, I've shot a number of .303 bullets into my test media. No hocuspokus. It has a good overall reputation because it is a good caliber. Light recoil, good killing power. A 200+ grain 30-ish caliber bullet jogging along at 2000+ fps has the makings of a good killer of game to the elk/kudu/zebra size at moderate ranges.

Oh, yeah, this has been proven thousands of times in the field for a hundred years!

Seems sort of silly to think that somebody might have a problem with that concept.

The .303 is essentially quite similar to the .308 Win and .300 Savage which is to say it is a good round for taking lots of different game.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: .303 British as a hunting calibre? [Re: CowboyCS]
      #100250 - 25/03/08 11:38 AM

Woodleigh make a 215 gn round nose projectile that I have used successfully on most animals here in Australia except for buffalo,and then only because the occation has never presented its self.
Tom Cole,a famous Aussie buff and croc hunter used one of horseback to hunt buff.
He has written several books on the subject.
All are a good read.
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949


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DarylS
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Re: .303 British as a hunting calibre? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #100255 - 25/03/08 12:17 PM

No damage is done by shooting .311's or .312's through a .308" groove diameter barrel. In my friend's rifle, the neck area is cut with the .303 reamer, thus there is lots of room for the neck to expand. You might not be able to take a normal .308" rifle chambered for say, a .308 or .30/06 and chamber it with a round loaded with a .312" bullet. The bullet might be too large to allow sufficient expansion of the neck to release the bullet, thus excessive pressure could result.
: In Keith's rifle's case, there is lots of room and thus no tight-neck syndrome(which will cause problems if present). Due to the mid range to slower powders used that develope maximum pressure some distance down the bore, ie: 6" to 12" ahead of the chamber, the bullet is already sized properly and thus does not increase breech pressure a measurable amount. Parker O. Ackley proved this many years ago, using IMR reclaimed 4895 powder and an '06 case and barrel with up to .358" bullets, appropriately necked and throated, of course. The bullets are sized, swaged if you will, in the angle of the throat to properly fit. There is not much difference between .308" and .312" bullets - a mere .002" per side.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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JabaliHunter
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Re: .303 British as a hunting calibre? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #100312 - 26/03/08 04:51 AM

Quote:

a good killer of game to the elk/kudu/zebra size at moderate ranges. Oh, yeah, this has been proven thousands of times in the field for a hundred years!



I would have to agree, and so would Charlie Hayley in the conclusion to his article in African Hunter "The .303 is one of the finest bushveldt cartridges around. Despite its rimmed and tapered case, the .303 must rank as one of the most significant and successful rounds ever made. Well over 100 years old, it still gives sterling service world wide, and it more than deserves the accolade “venerable”. There is no reason why it should not go on for another hundred years."


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JabaliHunter
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Re: .303 British as a hunting calibre? [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #100313 - 26/03/08 04:59 AM

Alan - thanks for the book recommendations. I will look out for those. The 2 woodleighs are probably the way that I will go, as I have had good experience with them in other calibres.

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JabaliHunter
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Re: .303 British as a hunting calibre? [Re: DarylS]
      #100314 - 26/03/08 05:00 AM

Daryl - Thanks for the info. I was going to ask a question along those lines in another thread, but now I don't need to! I'm not a velocity hound, but out of interest, what speed do you expect from the 220gr Hornadys in that .308 tube? For that matter, what kind of speeds could you safely load to in a modern falling block?

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JabaliHunter
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Re: .303 British as a hunting calibre? [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #100315 - 26/03/08 05:02 AM

88MauSporter - Lapua make some good .311 bullets that are popular for target shooting. I don't know if they would be any cheaper than Woodleighs though (and not suitable for game either).

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JabaliHunter
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Re: .303 British as a hunting calibre? [Re: bonanza]
      #100316 - 26/03/08 05:03 AM

Quote:

For God so loved the world that he gave us the 303



Amen to that !


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DarylS
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Re: .303 British as a hunting calibre? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #100331 - 26/03/08 08:20 AM

I suspect Keith will try for 2,150fps to 2,200fps with the 220's in his Canadian P-14 Mauser. In a modern falling block, specifically a Ruger #1, I don't see any trouble adding 100fps to those. It all depends on the brass, how well it is fit to the chamber before being fireformed and when things get sticky. Due to the very tapered case, sticky comes long before modern-type high pressures will be reached. In either action, you'd be able to load to slightly sticky extraction, then back off a good 2gr. with a Hodgdon Extreme powder - 3gr. for others. I suspect the Ruger would allow slightly higher speeds at maximum loads.
: Improving the case to an Ackley or Epps deign would result in .308 Winchester ballistics - slightly better than standard.
: The original 215gr. Dominion(Imperial) bullets were wonderful on our moose. The Woodleighs would be as good or better, but are not available here.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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dnovo
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Re: .303 British as a hunting calibre? [Re: DarylS]
      #100339 - 26/03/08 09:16 AM

Whole lot of SXS DRs chambered in 303, as one of the earliest high velocity cartridges for thin skinned African hunting. I have a Purdey from 1900, and early Nitro-proofed gun. The Lee Speed in 303 was a very, very popular hunting rifle from about the same period through the 20s. (And avidly collected today. If you have one, let me know, I am always interested.)

And, God only knows how many ex-military rifles, in moderately or totally-rebuilt form were made up from the 200 zillion Long Lees, SMLEs, etc et that were sold surplus, left in countries all over the globe after the fighting stopped, or simply taken home by their former owners now out of uniform. 303 as a hunting cartridge? Well I should say!!!!

Dave

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Time Wounds All Heels


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9.3x57
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Re: .303 British as a hunting calibre? [Re: dnovo]
      #100348 - 26/03/08 10:40 AM

Jabali: I've done a fair amount of testing of various .303's in my ballistic media. PM me with your address and I will mail you some results. If you like and have the ability, maybe post the results here? I posted them all on the old gunboards forum but I forgot to repost them on the new board after the old one went down. In a general sense, in the test media, you won't find anything dramatically different between the .303 and many other rounds like the .30-06, though that round and others have somewhat flatter trajectories and due to their higher velocities will carry ".303-level performance" out a little further than the .303 does. The .303 has no mystical properties, but its effectiveness cannot be denied.

A vast number of devotees have a vast amount of good to say about it based on a vast amount of experience.

When I hear a fellow say the .303 ain't no good I immediately ask "I bet you think the .30-30 won't kill deer, too."

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: .303 British as a hunting calibre? [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #100369 - 26/03/08 01:01 PM

Quote:

Woodleigh make a 215 gn round nose projectile that I have used successfully on most animals here in Australia except for buffalo,and then only because the occation has never presented its self.
Tom Cole,a famous Aussie buff and croc hunter used one of horseback to hunt buff.
He has written several books on the subject.
All are a good read.
Al




The .303 has been used on everything from rabbits to buffalo in Australia. Nothing a .308 can do, a .303 can't.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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9.3x57
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Re: .303 British as a hunting calibre? [Re: NitroX]
      #100375 - 26/03/08 02:57 PM

Quote:

The .303 has been used on everything from rabbits to buffalo in Australia. Nothing a .308 can do, a .303 can't.




Might add that it doesn't work the other way around, in that most .308's have a 1/12 twist, so if you want to use 220 grain bullets in a .308, you may have some stability problems and resultant yaw and inaccuracy with the extra long bullets. Rugers are 1/10, and solve that potential problem. .303's are 1/10 also.

I have never heard of a 220 grain factory load in .308 Win, 200's being the heaviest load in factory ammo.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Ripp
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Re: .303 British as a hunting calibre? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #100884 - 31/03/08 12:32 AM

I read with great interest when seeing this article--the 303 British was my very first centerfire rifle --in an old WWII rifle I purchased from my uncle for $45.---used if exclusively for 10 plus years taking lots of whitetail, (my first whitetail actually) along with coyotes and everything in between...great caliber---still have that gun and still take it out once in a while for "old times sake"...

Ripp

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Grenadier
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Re: .303 British as a hunting calibre? [Re: Ripp]
      #100938 - 31/03/08 09:18 AM

JabaliHunter ,

An interesting discussion of the .303 begins on page 459 of "Bullet and Shot in Indian Forest, Plain and Hill" by Charles Edward Mackintosh Russell.

You can download the whole thing here. It is about 6.6mb and you will need something like Adobe Acrobat to read it. Good read.


http://books.google.com/books/pdf/Bullet...CeZngIFlW519owk



Grenadier

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JabaliHunter
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.303 British bullet tests courtesy of 9ThreeXFifty7 [Re: 9.3x57]
      #102553 - 15/04/08 10:35 PM

Many thanks to 9ThreeXFifty7 for sending me these. I have taken the liberty of posting his comments and results here for posterity on NitroExpress.com

Quote:

I see the .308 as a ‘modern’ .303 as long as the .308 has a quick twist barrel and 200-220 grain bullets. Its funny that NATO picked a rimless .303 of sorts. Much is made of the US pressure on NATO to accept a short .30-06, but really the .308 is a ‘light bullet .303, ballisticaly speaking!


For some time I have used a method to test hunting bullets/loads and 1 recently decided to test some .303 loads. My ballistic media starts with a piece of 1/2 inch plywood followed by a water-filled USA 1 Gallon plastic milk jug. This combination is then repeated, with all boards and jugs set snugly together. A USA 1 gallon milk jug is about 51/2 inches wide. For those of you who have followed the French into the metric system, the boards are 1.27 cm thick and a gallon jug takes about 3.78 litres and sits about 14 cm wide


Weather was 320 Fahrenheit (00C) and snowy and muddy. Clammy. New snow stayed away long enough for me to get the loads chronographed before the jug-shooting started.


All shooting was done at 20 meters.




Winchester Super Speed 180 Pointed Soft Point Factory Load @ 2356 fps.
Old stock.
- Fully penetrated 3 boards and 2 jugs. Bullet was found in 3rd jug.
- Recovered weight 148 grains, 82%, .68" diameter.

Remington-Peters 215 grain Round Nose Factory Load @ 2004 fps.
1950s-1960s stock
- Full penetration of 4 boards and 3 jugs. Bullet was found in 4th jug.
- Recovered weight 179 grains, 83%, 73" diameter.

"U" 1943 MKVII Ball bullet @ 2287 fps.
Ball bullet from 1985 HXP L1A1 was removed and replaced with this MKVII bullet
- Full penetration of 4 boards and 3 jugs. Bullet entered the 3rd jug dead centre then veered off to exit the 3rd jug at the bottom of the jug, then unzipped the 4th jug and ploughed into the heavy wood table where it wedged tightly.
- Recovered weight 173 grains, 99%, no expansion but it did bend and flatten some.
I have read reports of this dual core (aluminium front, lead rear) bullet acting as a soft point but I cannot verify this. Bullet changed course in the media with a slightly oblong exit hole where it left the first jug. First jug showed some splitting but stayed mostly intact. Second jug did blow up.

Greek HXP 1985 L1A1 175 grain Factory Military Ball Load @ 2363 fps.
Solid lead one-piece core
- Full penetration of 3 jugs and 3 boards, then fully penetrated 11/4 inches of plywood and came to rest inside the laminations of an additional piece of 3/4 inch plywood.
- Bullet lost about 1 grain of weight but otherwise stayed intact and maintained its shape and could be shot again.
I only had three jugs left when I shot this bullet so I piled up plywood to catch the thing if/when it exited the third jug. This bullet did little damage to the first jug except for the .311 calibre entry and exit holes, then turned sideways in the second jug and spent the rest of its trip flying sideways.

Greek HXP 1985 L1A1 170 grain "DUM-DUM SPECIAL" @ 2327 fps.
Factory Military Ball Load with tip ground off
- Bullet fully penetrated 3 boards and 2 jugs, then carried on through the 3rd jug and dented the board behind it.
- Core did slip up the jacket but recovered weight was 156 grains, 92%, .67" diameter.
I twisted a 5/32 inch wrench socket around the bullet tip to score it then ground off the tip to the line and polished the tip on a buffing wheel. PLEASE NOTE: Due to the possibility of shooting the core out of the bullet and leaving the jacket stuck in the bore I cannot recommend this practise. I did it but I am telling you not to! I checked the bore between shots.

Quote:

A few comments:
The explosive hydraulic effect of bullet impact cannot be described adequately. The soft point loads are quite destructive of the jugs they penetrated, the FMJ's less so. Even the first jug shot by a SP will typically rupture in various places and fly off yonder. Not so when shot with the FMJ's.


My own personal goal for bullets I use on deer, elk and bear is to find them in the 3rd jug with recovered diameter in excess of .50" and weight in excess of 60%. From anecdotal reports I expected something different from the MKVII bullet. I guess I expected it to break up or otherwise do something really interesting. As it turned out, it acted essentially as a regular FMJ. I’d like to shoot this one extensively but I do not have a source for those bullets now. The real sleeper in the group was the Home Brewed HXP L1A1 ‘DUM-DUM SPECIAL’. With the tip ground off it looks for all the world like a Norma Vulkan bullet and for cryin'-out-loud gave excellent ‘soft point’ performance. In fact, for deer or elk shooting its performance appeared superb. Were it not for the theoretical loss of core in the bore I'd opt for this bullet over any shot in today’s test for such game!




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JabaliHunter
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More .303 British bullet tests courtesy of 9ThreeXFifty7 [Re: 9.3x57]
      #102554 - 15/04/08 10:39 PM

Quote:

Some unexpected results this time - with the 150 grain bullets demonstrating penetration and expansion similar to the heavier 180s. This I did not anticipate.

Standard test media were used; this being one 1/2-inch piece of CDX plywood followed by a one-gallon milk jug filled with water, followed by another 1/2-inch piece of plywood, followed by another milk jug, and so on.




.303 150 grain Hornady Spire Point @ 2543 fps
Load: 40 grains IMR3031
- Full penetration 3 boards, 2 jugs, found in 3rd jug, dented 4th board
- No core/jacket separation. Expansion .61". Recovered weight 100 grains, 67%

.303 150 grain Speer PSP @ 2567 fps
Load: 40 grains IMR3031
- Full penetration 3 boards, 2 jugs, found in 3rd jug. Dented 4th board.
- Core/jacket separated. Expansion .61". Recovered weight 106 grains, 71%.

.303 180 grain PMC Factory Round @ 2271 fps
Factory load with Sierra SPBT Game King (303HB)
- Full penetration 3 boards, 2 jugs. Found in 3rd jug.
- Core/jacket separated. Expansion .55" (core). Recovered weight 135 grains, 75%.

.303 180 Remington Core-Lokt SPRN Factory Round @ 2448 fps
Old stock 9330 with 2 cannelures
- Full penetration 2 boards, 2 jugs. Found in 3rd board.
- Expansion .62". Recovered weight 132 grains, 73%.

.303 180 grain Remington Core-Lokt RN @ 2331 fps
Load: 40 grains H4895
- Full pen 3 boards, 2 jugs. Found in 3rd jug.
- Expansion .63". Recovered weight 144 grains, 80%.

.303 200 grain Speer Grand Slam (second) @ 2243 fps
Load: 45 grains H4350, CCI250 magnum primer, S&B case
- Full penetration 5 boards, 4 jugs. Found on table after 5th board (no dent in 5th jug).
- Expansion .49". Recovered weight 178 grains, 89%.
Speer made a short run of these some years ago. It was designed for a Canadian improved/wildcat affair and may be too tough a bullet for the .303 British.

For comparison – 7x57 Mauser penetration test

7x57, 175 grain Sellier & Bellot Factory Load @ 2460 fps
- Full penetration 3 boards, 3 jugs. Found outside 3rd jug, did not enter 4th board.
- Expansion .66", Recovered weight 142 grains, 81%.

Quote:

I should add that the only hunting experience I have had with the .303 was in the shooting of a single black bear with the Remington Core-Lokt load. I have been using this testing method with a growing variety of calibres for some time. I have some criteria developed after comparing many tested bullets with successfully recovered bullets from game. For a general purpose deer and elk bullet, I want:

- First jug decisively blown up, indicating quick initial expansion and hydraulic effect (solids/FMJs may provide deep penetration at times but frequently leave the first jug essentially merely holed, indicating poor early hydraulic effect. Such late expansion means the bullet may not expand much in the critter)

- Bullet to be found in the 3rd jug (deeper penetration usually indicates poor setup/expansion and poor energy dump)

- Expansion to be equal to or in excess of .60" regardless of the original diameter of the bullet.

As such, most of these loads performed pretty well, though the old stock Remington 180 grain bullet didn't penetrate as much as I'd have liked and the Speer 200 grain bullet appears to be really too stoutly constructed for .303 British velocities, giving deep penetration but poor expansion. Recognizing that as range increases to at least 200 yards penetration will also increase, albeit at the expense of some expansion, the 200 grain Speer appears to be a poor bullet for general use in the .303. I suspect it may act as a solid at ranges in excess of 100 yards or so, possibly closer.




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