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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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rscott
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Reged: 21/03/08
Posts: 328
Loc: wyo., USA
over under rifles
      #100171 - 24/03/08 10:20 PM

i would like to hear some opinions on over under double rifles. anyone used them in the field?

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dnovo
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Reged: 21/02/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Chicago & SE Wisconsin
Re: over under rifles [Re: rscott]
      #100173 - 24/03/08 10:42 PM

Over and Under rifles seem to be the stepchildren of the DR community, perhaps an outgrowth of the fact that the British gun industry never took to them with the zeal of their Continental cousins in preference to the SXS, and most collectors favor the British outlook on DRS. However, they are fine rifles.

Capt Curl and I both own Merkel 323E sidelock O/U, which rival a 'best' SXS in terms of quality --- build, engraving, balance, etc. Both are in 375H&H. I have several other O/U that function well and are very well done, mostly German or Austrian built.

The O/U is supposedly a bit slower to reload as the action must open more to allow access to the lower bbl. I have not found this to be significant in use at all. Another limitation on the O/U is real, the limitation on cartridge length that precludes chambering in anything much beyond the 375/9.3X74R length. Anything longer will require the opening to tilt down beyond a practical limit.

That said, and a limit on use for 'dangerous game' other than supposedly leopards (I don't know as I haven't tried and don't plan on it) the O/U will function just as well and just as easily as a SXS. Since upper and lower bbls are in the same vertical plane, you will find many more O/U scoped than a SXS as the scope can be easily zeroed for point of impact with a slight 'hold over' for the lower bbl. That will allow use, IMHO, at greater range than a SXS. (I have a Suhl-built pre-war O/U in 7.65R that is very accurate at 300yds and sighted in with a scope for that distance.)

Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
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Re: over under rifles [Re: rscott]
      #100181 - 24/03/08 11:38 PM

As has been noted previously, I have a Kreighoff "Teck" boxlock ejector O/U double rifle in .458 Winchester Magnum which I acquired in 1971. It has interchangeable barrel sets in .375 H&H and 20 gauge 3" magnum. I have used it to take four of the Big Five (my rhino was taken with a bolt gun) with totally satisfactory results. (See: http://www.frappr.com/?a=mygroups&id=3823381)

Both sets of rifle barrels are scoped in claw mounts and I have never had the need to resort to the open sights. My longest shot was on an eland, at some 240 yards, and I have also used it to take greater and lesser kudu at relatively long range and under demanding light conditions.

Having used O/U shotguns for over 40 years, I find the O/U configuration completely normal and have never experienced any difficulty with it. I am presently having two more "Teck" rifles and an "Ulm" sidelock rifle built in calibers .500 NE, .450 C&W (a wildcat cartridge of my own devising) and 9.3X74R.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: over under rifles [Re: xausa]
      #100191 - 25/03/08 01:36 AM

Our Aussie buddy, 4seventy, is a regular user of O/U rifles. Maybe he will add his experience to what has been said.

Although I prefer the style of the SxS, I would not hesitate to use a good O/U in the field. In fact, I used to own a setup of Valmet 312 that included 12/12, 12/.222, and .30-06/.30-06. I used the .30-06 barrels extensively. They were superbly accurate and accounted for a lot of downed game here in Western Virginia. I had a 4x Weaver mounted. Accurate shots to 300 yards were routine.

The O/U enjoys one advantage that is undeniable: cost! A good O/U can be had for a lot less than a comparable SxS. Here's mine:







Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
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Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: over under rifles [Re: CptCurl]
      #100192 - 25/03/08 01:53 AM

Had a few shots out of Mario B_'s Beretta Gold Sable 9.3x74 when we held the Aussie Big Game Rifle Championships in Darwin a while back.
That marvellous rifle impressed me greatly!
...and that, coming from a dyed-in-the-wool Side-by-Side shooter, is really saying something!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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zimhunter
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Loc: Southern Arizona
Re: over under rifles [Re: Marrakai]
      #100198 - 25/03/08 02:41 AM

dnovo,
I'm curious as to why the length of a cartridge requires the action to be opened wider I would have supposed that was determined by the diameter alone.

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: over under rifles [Re: zimhunter]
      #100277 - 25/03/08 10:02 PM

I'm puzzled about that "cartridge" length comment as well ?? best, Mike

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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: over under rifles [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #100279 - 25/03/08 10:35 PM

I agree - as far as I know the gape is determined by the cartridge diameter rather than length. Therefore the choice of S/S or O/U is a subjective one and explains why alot of people (like me) like O/U small guage shotguns and S/S 12 bores. I don't have an O/U DR though, but have seen them used alot for monteria (driven stag/boar) shoots in Spain in calibres up to 9.3x74. Haven't seen larger calibres in the flesh, so to speak

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dnovo
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Reged: 21/02/05
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Re: over under rifles [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #100282 - 25/03/08 11:04 PM

Cartridge Length = amount of 'drop' when the action opens. In a SXS, the action only needs to open as far as necessary to bring the chambers up above the top of the action. Cartridge length is not an issue as once it passes that imaginary line, there is an infinite amount of room to slide in the longest cases, for example, a 475 No. 2 at more than 4".

On an O/U, the longer the intended cartridge, the farther the action must open to provide ready access to the lower barrel. In order to get say a 475 No. 2 into an O/U, one would need to have the action open almost 90 deg.

There is a relatively small distance between the breeches and the chamber of any O/U based on the inherent mechanics of the action. Opening too wide makes for awkward actions, slow handling, and potential stress on the action itself. Indeed, given less room to 'maneuver' an O/U is a tad slower to break open and reload than a SXS. This is not a problem with most chamberings, but the larger and longer the round, the more time and care needed to reload.

The limit for most O/U is usually 9.3X74R or a 375 H&H such as in my Merkel 323E. The ones you see in 458 are pushing the limits, and one should also recall that the 458 is a fairly compact cartridge. The longer NE rounds or bolt action big wigs such as the 416 Rigby are generally too long and too bulky to function smoothly in an O/E. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

Edited by dnovo (25/03/08 11:06 PM)

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André
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Reged: 28/06/04
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Loc: Brussels (Belgium)
Re: over under rifles [Re: dnovo]
      #100288 - 26/03/08 01:05 AM

I drive hunt with a Belgian handmade (custom shop) FN-Browning O/U in 9,3x74R. Engraving is signed by José Baerten, former FN's head master engraver. I've had it scoped with a Swarovski 1,25-4x24 ("battue" circle dot reticle)in Sühler clawmounts and, after re-regulation, both bbls. shoot in the same hole at 60 m.




--------------------
André
---------------------------------
3 shots do not make a group, they show a point of aim or impact.
5 shots are a group.

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zimhunter
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Re: over under rifles [Re: dnovo]
      #100299 - 26/03/08 03:14 AM

I still fail to see where length plays ANY part in the opening of the action. The deciding factor is to raise the chambers above the breech and this would be a factor of Diameter of round NOT length. I find negligible difference between my 12 and 28 gauge O/U's as far as usability. You have precisely the same circumstances with a SxS as to angle of opening being determined by diameter rather than length.

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dnovo
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Re: over under rifles [Re: zimhunter]
      #100301 - 26/03/08 03:28 AM

Try taking a long cartridge and put it into the lower chamber of an O/U. I agree that diameter of the round may be an issue, but length is irrelevant? Don't think so. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

Edited by dnovo (26/03/08 03:29 AM)

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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
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Re: over under rifles [Re: dnovo]
      #100304 - 26/03/08 03:53 AM

Quote:

The limit for most O/U is usually 9.3X74R or a 375 H&H such as in my Merkel 323E. The ones you see in 458 are pushing the limits, and one should also recall that the 458 is a fairly compact cartridge.


I'm still not sure that I understand your logic. Correct me if I misunderstand, but by your argument, the .375 is at the limit of practicality for an O/U and a .458 is pushing beyond it. However, if cartridge length is the determining factor, then surely the opposite should be true - the shorter .458 round should require less gape than the .375 which is longer? I can't see why the case length matters - they both have the same headsize and once the action is opened far enough for the case to be ejected clear, I can't see what difference the case length makes.
What am I missing?

Edited by JabaliHunter (26/03/08 04:13 AM)

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zimhunter
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Re: over under rifles [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #100322 - 26/03/08 06:00 AM

I'm sitting here holding a 9.3x74 next to a 416Rigby and the Rigby is only about 5/32" longer. I'm definitely missing some logic somewhere.

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dnovo
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Re: over under rifles [Re: zimhunter]
      #100326 - 26/03/08 07:37 AM

Quote:

I'm sitting here holding a 9.3x74 next to a 416Rigby and the Rigby is only about 5/32" longer. I'm definitely missing some logic somewhere.



Yes, but any rifle for a 416 would need to be built far stronger than one that would max out for the pressures and lesser strain of a 9.3. So perhaps I am not being logical, and rather than rely on my limited gunsmithing skills (none) I called a friend of mine who is a Merkel employee of long standing. (They build both SXS and O/U.)

He said the reason one rarely finds a O/U larger than 375 (which they used to make but no longer) as there is little call for an O/U in the really heavy calibers. They are, according to him at least, used primarily for hunting in Europe and, from time to time, here in the US. The 9.3 is about as big as they go for these types of useage, and even the 375 was too much and has been taken out of their inventory. He said Merkel sales in O/U are mostly in the 9.3X74R and smaller calibers for the more traditional Continental and close quarter hunting in the US. He said that 'African' hunters prefer the SXS.

"Could we or any other competent company or gunsmith build an O/U strong enough to handle a big nitro caliber? Sure, up to a reasonable limit, but there is no market for one so you aren't going to see them."

I will defer to him on this, as this seems to make sense. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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hoppdoc
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Re: over under rifles [Re: dnovo]
      #100343 - 26/03/08 10:10 AM

Maybe I am crazy but the longer a cartridge is the LESS the angle of the hinge to breechface(top) should be to open the action the distance required to remove the cartridges. A short cartridge with a short hinge to breechface(top) length will require a larger angle to open the action to access the cartridges.

Of course you can blow all the previous verbage away by making your hinge to breechface length anything you want for short cartridges!!

Given relatively long cartridges the reason the O/U must be opened further vs SXS with similar hinge to breechface lengths is that you have the diameter of TWO cartridges plus the surrounding metal to move vs the ONE cartridge width + metal of the SXS.No doubt the SXS can be reloaded with less motion of the barrel to expose both cartridges.

I like the concept of the scoped O/U for longer range medium caliber cartridges and the stacked barrels with the top barrel closer/under the scope for longer shots.For medium caliber Doubles it seems a natural, for large diameter/calibers a liability.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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butchloc
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Reged: 18/12/04
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Re: over under rifles [Re: hoppdoc]
      #100442 - 27/03/08 05:18 AM

i've got a pair of beretta o/us that i use quite a bit. one is in 30"06 the other in 9.3x74R with a set of 20 ga barrels that fit either action. The 06 is the most accurate double i have, groups into 1" consecutive barrels, the 9.3 does about 2.5". none of my sxs will do that 1" thing. my old evans will to it pretty close but not consecutively. the merkel will go almost alongside of the 9.3. couple of points - the o/u is much easier to scope, and eventually everybodys eyes get old enuf to need that. the o/u for reloading is slower than a sxs because you have to open the action so much further. Once opened all the way cartridge length is not a problem, but if it isn't quite open all the way the bottom barrel is a problem. having the xtra shotgun barrels is a big plus when on a trip. its always nice to be able to do a bit of bird shooting, or in africa they get used at night on the small cats

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hoppdoc
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Re: over under rifles [Re: butchloc]
      #100489 - 27/03/08 11:03 AM

Any recommendations on "preferred" O/U in 9.3, 8x57, and over 30 cal calibers that would represent the most accurate,best bang for the $$???

I'm thinking an O/U with a scope and ejectors would be a great fun gun!!

I can't afford a loaded Heym 450/400 scoped Double with tax time around the corner!! An O/U may fit the bill!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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zimhunter
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Re: over under rifles [Re: hoppdoc]
      #100504 - 27/03/08 01:04 PM

I would think the best buy would be a Valmet/Tikka in 9.3. I've owned 2 Valmet 9.3's and was very well pleased with both. One was a 4 barrel salesmans set the other had 12ga barrels with it. Took the shotgun combo to Zimbabwe but didn't use the rifle just the shotgun. They make a silicone rubber filler that goes between the barrels that greatly improves the looks. Both mine were single trigger models don't really know if they make a double trigger model. I actually prefer single triggers and really don't see a downside to them.

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Paul
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Re: over under rifles [Re: zimhunter]
      #100526 - 27/03/08 08:44 PM

Didn't Westley Richards make O/U rifles in large calibres? I seem to remember some reference to something like an Ovundi rifle.

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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
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Re: over under rifles [Re: hoppdoc]
      #100529 - 27/03/08 09:18 PM

Quote:

Any recommendations on "preferred" O/U in 9.3, 8x57, and over 30 cal calibers


I really like the FN Browning O/U. Whether it is the best bang for the buck is another matter though... It depends what you find out there on the market. I can't think of any others that really grab my attention, but I can list the S/S that do though

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: over under rifles [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #100533 - 27/03/08 09:50 PM

I think the Merkel 323E is the cream of the crop.

In that rifle you can have a truly best quality rifle for a small fraction of what a best English rifle would cost you. Unbelievable really.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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dnovo
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Re: over under rifles [Re: CptCurl]
      #100537 - 27/03/08 10:45 PM

I agree with the Cap on the Merkel 323, but they are an expensive proposition and are imported as special order items only. The lower priced Merkel O/Us, which can be purchased well under 10K are, IMHO, the best 'bang for the buck.' I have a very nice scoped O/U in a 7X65R that is a pleasure to shoot, well finished, and reliable. And, as I said before, Merkel parts and service in the US is top notch. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
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Re: over under rifles [Re: dnovo]
      #100541 - 27/03/08 11:10 PM

Very true - and you can get double triggers, which I don't think are an option on the Browning.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: over under rifles [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #100552 - 28/03/08 12:54 AM

Dave,

You aren't considering the availability of Merkel 323E's on the used market.

Here's an absolute screaming deal on a scoped .375 H&H that's been out there for a good while:

Merkel 323E at Hallowell's

It's a sin to be able to buy that quality at such a cheap discount.

The last time GSI imported a 323E was several years ago. It wasn't nearly as nice as this one or mine, and it sold for ~$30k without a scope. The old GDR Merkels are far superior than the current ones. Under communism there was no need to turn a profit.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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