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Checkman
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Reged: 15/03/08
Posts: 256
Loc: Idaho
Teddy Roosevelt's Holland & Holland
      #99587 - 19/03/08 07:01 AM

Just a question. I've seen the Winchester 1895 in .405 Winchester that Roosevelt took with him on his famous African safari after his second term was complete in 1909. A couple of years ago at the Buffalo bill Museum of Western history in Cody, Wyoming.I spent a fair amount of time looking it over. However I haven't been able to discover where his Holland & Holland is located. Does anybody know? Also I've read that the caliber was 500/450. Is this correct?

Just curious about double rifles owned by famous historical persons. Winston Churchill, Kitchener, Teddy Roosevelt, Sealous, etc. Or even if they owned doubles.


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Huvius
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt's Holland & Holland [Re: Checkman]
      #99600 - 19/03/08 08:21 AM

Roosevelt's Holland was a .500/.450.
It is profiled extensively in the film "In The Blood". I rented it through Blockbuster online.

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He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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dnovo
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt's Holland & Holland [Re: Huvius]
      #99601 - 19/03/08 08:23 AM

I think that was the 'homage' gun, recently made and shown in the Macintosh book, "Best of Holland & Holland." The original has been shown in several articles, a Google search should turm them up fairly easily. Dave

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Time Wounds All Heels


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Anonymous
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt's Holland & Holland [Re: Checkman]
      #99602 - 19/03/08 08:28 AM

The double rifle was given to Roosevelt for his year long 1909 African Safari. It was a Holland & Holland non ejector 500/450 3 1/4" double. It was presented to him I believe by a British firm. It has been refurbished some time ago by Holland & Holland.

Tyson Butler used it in the filming of "In The Blood".

Last time it surfaced, was at auction, and purchased by a California business man, for about $1,000,000.00

I hope you find this information useful.


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Checkman
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Reged: 15/03/08
Posts: 256
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt's Holland & Holland [Re: ]
      #99636 - 19/03/08 12:58 PM

Thank you. I really hadn't had any luck, but I will try again.I've never seen In the Blood. By the way didn't R.L. Wilson ,who was involved with that documentary, go to prison for tax fraud recently?

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Anonymous
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt's Holland & Holland [Re: Checkman]
      #99654 - 19/03/08 03:34 PM





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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3595
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Teddy Roosevelt's Holland & Holland [Re: ]
      #99661 - 19/03/08 06:57 PM

Sinner:
Roosevelt's Holland .500/.450 was the gift of 60 British admirers led by Edward Buxton. The donors included some of England's most prominent and respected men and women: naturalists, clergy, nobility, military officers, members of parliament, and F.C.Selous! Their names were recorded on a label attached inside the case next to the H&H trade label.

The rifle remained part of the Roosevelt Estate from TR's death in 1919 till 1948, when it passed to the family of his son Kermit. When Kermit's wife died in 1969, the gun passed through several owners until acquired by antiquarian/collector Greg Martin. Martin had the forend replaced for the film "In The Blood" as the original had been lost in the 1940s.

In 1987, Martin sold the gun to William E. Simon, former Secretary of the Treasury. That brings us up to 1990 where my reference ends, but I clearly remember the more recent auction record of a million bucks or thereabouts, referred to by Sinner above, was big news at the time.

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

Edited by Marrakai (20/03/08 12:47 AM)


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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt's Holland & Holland [Re: Marrakai]
      #99676 - 19/03/08 10:09 PM

As far as I know it is currently on display at the Frazier International History Museum in Louisville, Kentucky. You can see it in the photo here http://fraziermuseum.org/feature_detail.asp?id=13 and here http://fraziermuseum.org/feature_detail.asp?id=21

Edited by JabaliHunter (19/03/08 10:13 PM)


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt's Holland & Holland [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #99685 - 19/03/08 11:13 PM

Folks, please, it's T.R. or Theodore, not "Teddy". Poor man is spinning in his grave. I swear he'd take his quirt to all your backsides...

Hey Checkman, I was in Cody when you were there. I know because when I walked by the Roosevelt display case for the 10th time there was a fellow standing there making a drooling mess on the floor. Totally embarassing...

...I had already used up a box of Kleenex's and my hankie...

Sinner, great pic's. A few observations:

Is it "global warming", "sunspots" or the virtual parading around half-bare-naked of modern folk that has skin cancer reaching epidemic proportions?

While my Mother was bathing in fresh milk and the prim and proper girls on the Sandhill ranches were wearing flour sacks with eyeholes cut in them over their heads to keep the sun off, every sensible manjack wore a right and proper hat when he strutted around in the sun. No longer...

TR and Kermit have it right in those pics, as does everybody else hamstrung by white skin.

Anybody know where TR's sporterized Springfield went/is?

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt's Holland & Holland [Re: 9.3x57]
      #99692 - 20/03/08 12:32 AM

I believe I saw TR's Springfield sporter when I visited Sagamore Hill, Roosevelt's home in Oyster Bay, NY. Brophy's book seems to confirm this, since the photographs of the rifle are attributed to Sagamore Hill National Historic Site. I certainly saw a lot of TR's hunting trophies there. It's an interesting place to visit, especially if you are, as I am, an admirer of TR.

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt's Holland & Holland [Re: xausa]
      #99694 - 20/03/08 12:46 AM

9Three:
Put that down to ignorant Aussie. TR seems to be the popular monica. Previous post fixed!

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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Anonymous
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt's Holland & Holland [Re: Marrakai]
      #99698 - 20/03/08 02:10 AM

I like Teddy!

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Checkman
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Reged: 15/03/08
Posts: 256
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt's Holland & Holland [Re: 9.3x57]
      #99717 - 20/03/08 04:37 AM

Quote:

Folks, please, it's T.R. or Theodore, not "Teddy". Poor man is spinning in his grave. I swear he'd take his quirt to all your backsides...

Hey Checkman, I was in Cody when you were there. I know because when I walked by the Roosevelt display case for the 10th time there was a fellow standing there making a drooling mess on the floor. Totally embarassing...

...I had already used up a box of Kleenex's and my hankie...

Anybody know where TR's sporterized Springfield went/is?





LOL. Well what can I say. That is one terrific museum. I hate heights with a passion. To say it's a phobia is an understatement. But to get to Cody I gladly go over that mountain pass in Yellowstone Park to get through the East gate and onto Cody. My wife drives and I close my eyes. The things we do to look at classic firearms. Firearms that we can't even touch! And we (men) make fun of woman and their various quirks.

What I really found amusing is that the museum opens at 7:00 A.M. during the summer hours. My wife stayed in bed at the motel on our second day and I was there at 7:05 A.M. Just me and a bunch of guys all going to the right ,after entering the building, into the firearms wing.

Of course you know who the real hardcore guncranks are by who goes into the basement area and stays. Just rifles, shotguns and handguns stacked up with no pretty pictures or gee whizz audio-visual displays like on the first floor.

To the members who are not in the United States. If you ever get a chance pay a visit to the Buffalo Bill museum in Cody, Wyoming do it. Winchester donated it's firearms collection to the museum in the late seventies and in the following decades many extensive and amazing private collections have also been donated. There is a terrific shotgun and double rifle display for example. They have one of those crazy cross-eyed shotguns (with the weird shaped stock) for example and a Sharps Coffee Mill carbine. Aren't too many of those.

I like Teddy also even though I know it wasn't what he went by. But he's a victim of his own political campaigning. I just watched the Wind and the Lion again so I was inspired to ask about his Holland and Holland. Judging by the response my post has generated there is alot of interest in President Roosevelt.

A $1,000,000 dollars. Wow. By the way how do you "Lose" a forend of a stock? Yes I know that rifles are taken apart all the time, but you would think that there would have been more care taken with one of T.R's rifles. Especially a Holland and Holland.

I guess to the family it was just another one of T.R.s "guns" and great care was not always excercised.

Thanks for all the great responses.

Edited by Checkman (20/03/08 04:41 AM)


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt's Holland & Holland [Re: Checkman]
      #99723 - 20/03/08 05:48 AM

Quote:

To the members who are not in the United States. If you ever get a chance pay a visit to the Buffalo Bill museum in Cody, Wyoming do it. Winchester donated it's firearms collection to the museum in the late seventies and in the following decades many extensive and amazing private collections have also been donated.




Really true, it is a great museum. Very fine layout, and lots of interesting and rare guns. I remember years ago standing at every revolver display trying to guesstimate the b/c gap of each wheelgun with my then-about 12 year-old son. We were standing there conglomerating about whether the old-timers had to put up with lead spitting like we do and then I got self-conscious about being a real weirdo, a real gun crank with the powder sickness running thru my veins. But looking around, there were a number of other little groups noting this or that esoteric fine point about this shootin' iron or that one and a few guys wearing their wives out with descriptions of functionality and bore-and-groove dimensions.

And then I felt like I was at home, albeit "Home" being the Gun-Nut-House!

There are other very fine arms museums,too.

The all-time best I've ever been to is the Tøjhusmuseet in Copenhagen, Denmark. Absolutely amazing. I am not sure but I believe it to be the largest publicly displayed small arms museum in the world. Worth going to Copenhagen just to see.

As for TR...he is easy to love as a hunter, game conservationist and patriot, but I must confess, I hate his foreign policy politics and his participation and leadership in taking the USA once-and-for all out of the realm of a Jeffersonian Republic and onto the world stage as a super power.

He is the Patron Saint of the Mediocre Game Shot. Honest enough to admit he didn't make one-shot-kills every time...or every other time...or even frequently...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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AkMike
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Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: Teddy Roosevelt's Holland & Holland [Re: 9.3x57]
      #99735 - 20/03/08 09:50 AM

Another museum that is very interesting is the Milwaukee, Wisc. Public Museum. It's too bad that most of the collection is hidden away in the basement vaults. But I set up an appointment with the head gun nut and got to see some of the best SS rifles in the world.

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"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand


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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt's Holland & Holland [Re: 9.3x57]
      #99764 - 20/03/08 08:39 PM

I went to that museum twice when I was in Cody and really enjoyed it. Loads of stuff to see. They also had some of Jack O'Connor's sheep mounts which I took photos of and inserted into my copy of his sheep book!

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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt's Holland & Holland [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #99773 - 20/03/08 10:33 PM

Man in the Arena

The man is one of my all time heros. He was one of the greatest conservationists of all time. There was a Harley Convention in Cody a couple of years ago so I spent some time at the museum..unbelievable--as I live only a couple hours from there I have visisted on numerous occasions and highly recommend seeing it..

some of his great words shown below

Ripp




One of the top three most requested quotes is that regarding the "man in the arena" or "not the critic"

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."


"Citizenship in a Republic,"
Speech at the Sorbonne, Paris, April 23, 1910

Below are additional quotations related to the more famous and later quote. These quotes taken from a cdrom - The Works of Theodore Roosevelt - National Edition, A PRODUCT OF H-BAR ENTERPRISES COPYRIGHT 1997

"...the man who really counts in the world is the doer, not the mere critic-the man who actually does the work, even if roughly and imperfectly, not the man who only talks or writes about how it ought to be done." (1891)

"Criticism is necessary and useful; it is often indispensable; but it can never take the place of action, or be even a poor substitute for it. The function of the mere critic is of very subordinate usefulness. It is the doer of deeds who actually counts in the battle for life, and not the man who looks on and says how the fight ought to be fought, without himself sharing the stress and the danger." (1894)

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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jaz
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Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 188
Loc: Northeast US
Re: Teddy Roosevelt's Holland & Holland [Re: Ripp]
      #100040 - 23/03/08 09:51 AM

I saw TR's rifle last year in the Louisville museum. Could it have moved?

Regarding TR, my personal favorite American. With a true set of brass balls and ethics to go along, no bullxxxx with him. He was one of the few politicians that I admire. Next is Ben Franklin....


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AkMike
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Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: Teddy Roosevelt's Holland & Holland [Re: jaz]
      #100044 - 23/03/08 10:08 AM

Franklin was a statesman. Not a politician. Statesmen have ethics and nowdays that's a rare quality.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Teddy Roosevelt's Holland & Holland [Re: AkMike]
      #101277 - 03/04/08 02:14 AM

Aint that the truth!

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