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Shackleton
.300 member


Reged: 11/08/07
Posts: 203
Loc: Iowa
Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: Bramble]
      #103968 - 01/05/08 10:56 AM



We have gone so stupidly soft. How do you wipe out terrorists ?. Kill one, let them gather for one of those huge funerals that they have (we all see them on TV) and then lob a 1000lb smart bomb into the middle of them.
If you don't just get terrorists you get their supporters and the bitches that whelp them. Good riddence.
Destroy Al,jazera (spelling?) and all mouthpeices for terrorists.

Not a bad idea, but whoever actually did that would probably be called a terrorist themselves. Even Osama thinks in his strange little head that he's doing the right thing. The problem with war is everybody thinks their side is right. It would be be more fun(but obviously not feasible) to put them all on an island together with the racial hate groups and let the problems sort themselves out.

--------------------
"I do not kill with my gun, he who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father. I kill with my heart."--Stephen King


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Bramble
.375 member


Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: Shackleton]
      #104070 - 02/05/08 09:52 AM

Quote:



Not a bad idea, but whoever actually did that would probably be called a terrorist themselves. Even Osama thinks in his strange little head that he's doing the right thing. The problem with war is everybody thinks their side is right.




Shackelton

The difference as I see it is that we are right. Frankly I could not waste a single moment considering what Osama bin Laden thinks. Hitler thought he was right does that mean that we have to allow a single moments justification to the holocaust?

We live in and defend pluralistic liberal democracies where we welcome people from other countries and allow them to worship their god/s as they wish without interference from the state or percicution by individuals. They, support a system that would have us ruled by a theocracy and our civil rights eliminated.
There is no middle ground here. It is not about race hate or anything like it, it is a battle for survival.
These are not people campainging for a homeland or anything to which we can acceed. They are campainging to end our way of life.
They will stop your wife of daughter driving a car, leaving the house without her face covered. They will make you pray to a foreign god or face execution.
They will close your church.
They will stop you drinking a beer.
They will stop you eating a ham sandwich.
They will stop your wife from attending a football match, or baseball match.
They will take away your guns.
They will take away your free speach.
They will remove your rights to a fair trial.

I suggest that the threat to our way of life is no different then and now.

As to being accused of terrorism oneself for the suggestion I made. History is written by the victor. We killed 100,00 civilians in a night in Dresden. The US killed I don't know how many in an instant at Hiroshima. Do we accuse the men that made those decisions of terrorism. No. Because it needed to be done.
Would I care that some muslim thought that I was a terrorist, not for a moment.
Would I care that some Lefty in the west thought that I was. No they feel the same if I shoot a deer, they hate me already, fuck 'em.


I am frankly sick and tired of US and UK forces not being able to find terrorists when journalists for the "Arab" news services are apparently from the footage they show, able to contact them at will. Great, put a tracker on the journalists and when they next meet with some killer of western civilians drop a smart bomb on the lot of them. Good riddence.

We are sending the bravest and the best of our boys to die fighting an unwinnable war in Afganistan and Iraq. Why is it unwinnable, because we fail to be ruthless enough to win. Move such population that do not wish to be involved in fighting into safe areas that are checked for arms. Then kill every man, woman, child, dog, cat, goat rat and mouse that lies outside of these areas. Destroy the poppy fields and let the decent people start again. Invest money in those that are left. Give them decent houses, running water, sewers cars and jobs. But never let them forget the price of coming to our countries and killing our wives and children.

If we don't do it now, our children and their children will never know what it is not to live in fear.

Regards


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JabaliHunter
.400 member


Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: Bramble]
      #104113 - 02/05/08 07:31 PM

Quote:

History is written by the victor. We killed 100,00 civilians in a night in Dresden. The US killed I don't know how many in an instant at Hiroshima. Do we accuse the men that made those decisions of terrorism. No. Because it needed to be done.



Even the history as written by the victors has a consensus that this isn't true and wasn't necessary or desirable.

I don't discount the threat of terrorism, but if the threat was actually large enough to destroy a whole civilisation or way of life for a huge proportion of the world's population, then don't you think that the reaction would be much larger than it is, as was the case in WW2?

As for bombing funerals and journalists (who would die if a smart bomb were guided by a tracker that they were carrying), well I don't think that really merits serious discussion. Collateral damage may be unavoidable at times, but it is never excusable.

I do share your sene of frustration and think that the international community should be far more engaged rather than just reaping the potential future benefits of the efforts of others. However, I don't agree that the situation is unwinable, but I agree that without sufficient investment in infrastructure, the economy, poverty reduction and education, what is there to win?


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Bramble
.375 member


Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #104148 - 03/05/08 08:54 AM

JH

Not Necessary and desirable.

Some historians do indeed hold that the war was sufficently close to its conclusion that the fire bombing of German cities was not necessary and did not materialy effect the moral of the German people. However, conversly, there are records that show that a massive number of 88mm flack guns were diverted to the defence of cities when they would otherwise have gone to be used as AT guns on the Russian front.

I am sorry if I was unclear. I wasent suggesting that journalists volentarily carry trackers, just that we plant them on them. It was entirly my intention that they be consumed in the resultant fireball.

As far as "collateral damage" is concerned. That is a wishy washy uphamism for killing civilians.
The reason that the reaction is not as it should be, or as it was in WW2, is that we are no longer led by people with the moral backbone to do what needs to be done. Nor have sufficent numbers of the general population in the UK and US been killed or directly touched by the war to raise the rage of the people. The media (please refer to above for my views on journalists)bombard us with images of individuals in these countries that are hurt by the actions that we do take. As Marshall McLuhan recognised the medium is what shapes our perception. Television lost Vietnam for the US, the troops that fought and died won, but television made that sacrifice meaningless in the body of a burnt child or a bomber shot in the head in a street.
As Stalin observed long before the advent of television "The death of a single individual is a tradegy. The death of a million is just a statistic"

Most of what we face now is because Jimmy Carter failed to launch massive strikes against Iran to free the hostages in the US embassy. His weakness encouraged the islamics and weakened the positions of those who followed who would retaliate against such actions.

As far as I am concerned their lives are entirly worthless and the loss of the entire population of Afganistan will not compensate for a single dead citizen of the UK or US. The only people who would loose out are the heroin dealers when their supply drys up.

If there are worthwhile people in these countries then they have a simple choice, move to an area under our protection and live a peacefull fulfilling life, or die. This was the lesson of the Malayan Emergency. Only by removing civilian support either voluntary or coerced from insurectionists, can they be destroyed. Although resettlment was unpopular at first the superior living conditions in the new guarded villages and compounds was so much better than that they had before most of the inhabitants came to prefer it to their former existence.

Why cannot I advocate destroying their "way of life" or "civilization" they constantly and openly threaten to do just that to us.
I do not hold life as sacriscant, either that of an animal or a human. We constantly destroy vermin when they threaten our agriculture and thus our "way of life", these are vermin and I owe them no more respect than a rat.
The "international community" is run by professional polititions. They are corrupt self serving whores. The son of the last UN secretary general was investigated for skimming billions of dollars from the oil for medicine scheme in Iraq. All hushed up and covered up. We finally get rid of Blair when the public is so fed up of the self serving grinning jackenape that he has to resign, next he is a "special envoy" to the middle east. Lunatics and asylems springs to mind.
The only engagment they will make is with the contents of their Swiss bank accounts.

I support the war, I support our troops and those of the US and commenwelth. But for the sake of love how many more boys have to come home in flag draped boxes before we do what must be done, for if we do not do it our grandchildren will have to.

I am not fustrated JH. I have a sense of terrible dread for what we will leave our children to face because of our lack of fortitude.

Regards


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Shackleton
.300 member


Reged: 11/08/07
Posts: 203
Loc: Iowa
Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: Bramble]
      #104199 - 04/05/08 07:41 AM

Quote:

Quote:





The difference as I see it is that we are right. Frankly I could not waste a single moment considering what Osama bin Laden thinks. Hitler thought he was right does that mean that we have to allow a single moments justification to the holocaust?





good points, and no, I'm not trying to justify slaughters by any past or current world leader on the grounds that they thought their side was right(or to consider what Osama thinks)I'm just saying that when bombs
are used, even when necessary, accusation of the
T word rears its head. In these modern times, and as bad as a "traditional"war is, that's something to consider-especially considering how slanted the media can get with an article. It's easy to push a button and end off a few tons of explosives. We need to legally quiet down some of our own media before even thinking about a scenario like this. I'm not against freedom of the press, but sometimes the press abuses their own right.
As far as just bombing them all, war is sometimes necessary sure, but we need a balance somewhere. The pacifists have a point when they say killing for peace is like sex for chastity.

How'd we get from hunting with a .50 cal to this anyway?

--------------------
"I do not kill with my gun, he who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father. I kill with my heart."--Stephen King


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Dphariss
.300 member


Reged: 18/04/06
Posts: 130
Loc: Montana
Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: Shackleton]
      #104451 - 07/05/08 03:23 PM

Quote:

Quote:




The difference as I see it is that we are right. Frankly I could not waste a single moment considering what Osama bin Laden thinks. Hitler thought he was right does that mean that we have to allow a single moments justification to the holocaust?





good points, and no, I'm not trying to justify slaughters by any past or current world leader on the grounds that they thought their side was right(or to consider what Osama thinks)I'm just saying that when bombs
are used, even when necessary, accusation of the
T word rears its head. In these modern times, and as bad as a "traditional"war is, that's something to consider-especially considering how slanted the media can get with an article. It's easy to push a button and end off a few tons of explosives. We need to legally quiet down some of our own media before even thinking about a scenario like this. I'm not against freedom of the press, but sometimes the press abuses their own right.
As far as just bombing them all, war is sometimes necessary sure, but we need a balance somewhere. The pacifists have a point when they say killing for peace is like sex for chastity.

How'd we get from hunting with a .50 cal to this anyway?






People just need to understand the press is largely anti-American in their views and accept they are lied to more often than not on political issues.

Peace is only attainable when all sides want it.
It is generally necessary to kill a lot of the enemy before they opt for peace.
The bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima SAVED millions of lives.
Even then the peace was nearly lost to fanatics in Japan who very nearly intercepted the Emperors radio address before it was gotten out of the Palace.
Pacifists are invariably fools who only live because people who are not pacifists protect their lives and liberty. Or nobody figures they are worth killing. See http://orwell.ru/library/articles/pacifism/english/e_patw . Orwell (of all people) states it very well and it applies right now.
Once the fight is on there can be no "balance" its win or loose anything else is simply prolonging the agony and killing more of our people. Look at Korea and VN. The UN killed a lot of UN troops in Korea by its actions and the fact that the UN was and is infested with communists made "secret" operations impossible.
The on and off bombing in VN killed people I served with by encouraging the enemy.
Don't even go to the people who dreamed up the "sex for chastity" thing while VN was going on. My attitude there is somewhat "biased".

Dan


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JabaliHunter
.400 member


Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: Dphariss]
      #104489 - 08/05/08 04:06 AM

I'm not a pacifist but I would prefer peace to war - that just makes me sane!

I have no doubt that Hiroshima and Nagasaki saved lives by hastening the end of the war, but it also cost huge number of innocent lives at a time when the war was arguably ending already. Its a moral catch 22 that history and philosophy students will debate forever. I don't presume to know the answer but am human enough to see both sides.

On the subject of bombing in the current theatres of Iraq and Afghanistan, regardless of whether it was right or wrong to invade, I can't see how it helps protect the western way of life to bomb innocents, most of whom have no objection to it and in fact aspire to many asects of it. I know lots of people in (and also from) Pakistan, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, the Gulf States, Iran and Iraq, and the vast majority have no argument against the west. I can't see how bombing the people that like us gets us anywhere, not least becasue it breeds resentment, reduces their number and increases the proportion of fanatics as a share of total population.

Bramble - not sure what you have against journalists! If its just Al Jazeera, you may have the wrong impression of their impartiality. Just because they broadcast in Arabic doesn't mean they are biased and in cahoots with the fanatics. I don't suppose that every article they write is posted in English at http://english.aljazeera.net/English but what is there seems pretty neutral and certainly more so than much of what you get on www.foxnews.com


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JabaliHunter
.400 member


Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: 50 BMG, A HUNTING ROUND?? [Re: DoubleD]
      #104491 - 08/05/08 04:19 AM

Quote:

I have posted this picture here before.



This is a Montana rock chuck hit at about 250 yards with a 50 BMG. Look closely and you can see the bullet hit on the neck.




Are those missing tiles on the roof due to muzzle blast?!


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