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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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Sarg
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12 Bore Tolley - Shooting RB
      #98025 - 01/03/08 10:26 AM

I have been trying out some round ball loads to work out a load for my 12 bore rifle ,
the only mould I could get hold of was RB 555gr in soft lead , I shot one of these @ 1765 Fps into a large block of hard wood & it was blowen half into splinters and the ball after digging it out of the soil still weighted 545gr and half round but a inch across !
I know this does not seem possible , is this normal for RB ? imagine hardened ball @ 1850 or so !

Do you guys who know think this is good enough for Water Buffalo ?

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
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Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: 12 Bore Tolley - Shooting RB [Re: Sarg]
      #98027 - 01/03/08 10:41 AM

Sarge:
I would recommend hardened lead for buffalo. Sooner or later, the time will come when you need to break the on-side shoulder and still penetrate the chest cavity. Soft lead may work, but that is fairly high velocity for un-hardened lead and the possibility of failure by over-expansion on the big bones cannot be dismissed.

Too hard, though, and the ball may break up. Read Baker for the best info on this topic IMHO, but try to avoid hardening with mercury!
Others here will have first-hand experience I'm sure, or be in a position to recommend the best alloy for high velocity RBs on big game.

Taking that Tolley after buffalo would be a hoot!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: 12 Bore Tolley - Shooting RB [Re: Marrakai]
      #98029 - 01/03/08 11:17 AM

Marrakai:

Have you tried heat treating wheelweights? I have had success merely dropping the bullets straight from the mold into a bucket of water. After a few days they feel like copper to the "tooth test".

I am curious if wheelweights Down Under are the same or similar alloy to ours? Dunno.

The other question is, what would you think of using straight wheelweights for Sarg's buff? Certainly not as hard as HT'd WW's, but harder than lead, and not brittle either, though in a 12 br ball I don't think brittleness would be a real factor.

When I get old and my bones are creaky and I just can't handle winter anymore, I want to sell the ranch and move over there. You WB's are just too tempting...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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DarylS
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Re: 12 Bore Tolley - Shooting RB [Re: 9.3x57]
      #98038 - 01/03/08 02:26 PM

9.3 is spot-on here - Straight WW alloy will probably work, but at that high a velocity, I'd probably heat-treat them.
; At normal 'below 2,000fps' WW alloys in bullets are normally pretty hard without being brittle like Antimony. Hardened as 9.3 indicated, by merely dropping them form the mould into a bucket of water will bring the average hardness up to about brinel 25. The only trouble with these, is the hardness will vary from about brinel 20 to 31 or so. This really doesn't present a problem as they never do get brittle like the high antimony content alloys.
; Adding tin to the mix will help casting but they'll age-soften over time. I cast straight WW alloys without any difficulty, just run the moulds and lead at higher than normal temps and go for an evenly frosted ball.
; Beware that stick-on WW's are soft. The ones with the clips are the harder variety and brinel will range from about 9 on the soft side to 13 on the hard side.
; Since pure lead is brinel 5, you can see how relative the hardness is. I've driven a straight WW ball of .684" diameter only 466gr. completely through both shoulders of a moose. My buddy, with the .75 muzzleloading rifle, at a velocity around 1,400fps could not keep his .735" 600gr. WW balls inside a moose, no matter the angle. I don't think he had any Texas heart shots, but 1/4 angles form the front and from the rear always resulted in an exit. It takes pretty good penetrative power to exit 1/4" to 3/8" thick hide with a 3/4" ball.
; All said and done, I'd try some water dropped from the mould balls for accuracy.
: I drove my first WW alloy .684", 466gr. ball into a solid block of concrete about 4" thick, by 12" x 18"- about 75yards, impact maybe 1,300fps. The rifle used was my 14 bore English Sporting Rifle with 165gr. 2F. The largest piece was fist sized and I still have the ball - still in one piece, badly flattened and 440gr. I was absolutely amazed it didn't break up on that hard, old concrete slab.
: Sarg- I'm sure you'll enjoy further 'tests' of this nature. The 'power' is truely amazing. Shoot a big ungulate with one and watch them stagger at the hit.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Dphariss
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Re: 12 Bore Tolley - Shooting RB [Re: Sarg]
      #104295 - 05/05/08 09:17 AM

Quote:

I have been trying out some round ball loads to work out a load for my 12 bore rifle ,
the only mould I could get hold of was RB 555gr in soft lead , I shot one of these @ 1765 Fps into a large block of hard wood & it was blowen half into splinters and the ball after digging it out of the soil still weighted 545gr and half round but a inch across !
I know this does not seem possible , is this normal for RB ? imagine hardened ball @ 1850 or so !

Do you guys who know think this is good enough for Water Buffalo ?



Performance is pretty typical. Large bore RBs are very effective within their range. The "modern" ideas concerning the round ball are mostly erroneous.
From the historical perspective with hard balls it should do fine for Water Buffalo. Heat treated WW may tend to fragment at 2000-2200 fps perhaps even less if hard bone is struck. I would do some penetration testing with straight W-W and see how they work.
Note that some WW alloy is now zinc. So be careful if making your own alloy.

Dan

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Sarg
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Re: 12 Bore Tolley - Shooting RB [Re: Dphariss]
      #127914 - 24/02/09 01:31 PM

Gave some RB's a test like 9.3 ! I have a large boulder about 90yds from the shed & thought I would give it a whack with some WW water chilled RB's .736 587Gr @ 1835Fps .
Got 2in of penetration in rock & found both balls from 6ft to 10ft back , 1 went 502Gr & the other 556Gr .
I was going to try my 375 H&H & 338-06 to compare , but I'm worried about ricochets !















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Marrakai
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Re: 12 Bore Tolley - Shooting RB [Re: Sarg]
      #127918 - 24/02/09 01:54 PM

Still shooting apart, mate?

I'm amazed you found the flattened projectiles in the grass.

BTW, that one would be a bastard to skin!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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DarylS
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Re: 12 Bore Tolley - Shooting RB [Re: Marrakai]
      #127974 - 25/02/09 05:54 AM

I have a .69 ball that blew a block of concrete apart - shot it back in 1986 or so. The block was 14" x 10" x4" thick. The shot was made at 80 yards with what appeared to be a centre hit. I-too found the ball, flattened out to over 1", cupped slightly back with a crack in the middle. The charge was 165gr. 2F (about 6 drams) for 1,500fps. The largest chunk was about 3" in size.

On Moose,unless a big leg bone is hit, these balls exit, making 2" exit holes. A .375H&H for instance, shooting a factory 300gr. Silvertip will be underneath the hide, generally, on the off side, expanded to about .60 cal. The skin of a big bull is very elastic & that keeps the bullets inside. It is rare to get an exit on broadside shots with less than premium bullets which expand to much smaller sizes. For the .69" ball to exit is amazing.

These large, WW balls penetrate way out of proportion to their sectional densities. They don't need to be hardened further by quenching in water.

Sarg's results on granite (or maybe it's sandstone?) shooting are quite typical. What's really amazing is shooting heavy steel plates at 100 yards - I'm stalking about 1' or 1-1/2" thick by about 12" or more, sqaure. Common modern rifles barely move them with perfect hits, but the big balls make them dance. It really gives one an appreciation for momentum vs. fpe.

It is doubtful a 'standard' lead core modern bullet would do anything buy break up on the surface, making a smaller hole, perhaps a deeper "pock", maybe not. From the range of the rock, I'd not be too concerned with richochets, however, a friend of mine shot a curved armour plate at 20 yards, and the flattened 300gr. Sierra came back and whacked him on the belt buckle. He's 6' 18" tall and about 240, - on impact, he sad down abruptly, leaned over and vomited. The bullet simply made a lead splash on the steel, no indentation at all. how much came back, we don't know - couldn't find it. Good thing it was a soft bullet and not a Barnes X - hard to say what would have happened.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Sarg
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Re: 12 Bore Tolley - Shooting RB [Re: DarylS]
      #127991 - 25/02/09 08:02 AM

She is shooting 2in to 3in max apart at 50yds with that load , I'm still working on it but I think I can use it on big game as is ?
I shot a Turkey at 100 odd yards the other day , worked well ! !
The shots are apart but I could of made them worse as I shot free hand , no need to skin him out as
he is a yard mount (I think a very hard Sand Stone) I found the frist flatened ball on the track when I walked up to it which made me look for the other , these are WW water queched , does any one thing I should oven hardern as well ? ?

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: 12 Bore Tolley - Shooting RB [Re: Sarg]
      #128013 - 25/02/09 12:33 PM

As far as oven hardening, you'll get even results, whereas quenched as they come out of the mould, will result in varrying hardness from about 20 brinel to 30 brinel.

Since Linotype is about 21/22 brinel, the quenched WW should be just fine. One thing about the WW, is they don't get near as brittle as Lino is. Your recovered balls show that.

As to shooting apart, seems a minor change in load would bring them together?

Forsyth suggested sighting for one barrel and learning to hold for the other.

He also stated barrels should shoot paralell to the axis, centre of group. That way, they'll always shoot to the sights, albeit an inch and a bit wide of each other, but parallel out to maximum range, neither diverging nor converging. Yours are so close, I might be inclined to sioght for the right barrel, or whichever is fired first.
Sighted as Forsyth suggested, one would only have to hold 5" or so for the 'off' barrel at 100 yards - pretty simple.

BTW - what load did you use, please? E-mail or PM if you don't want to publish it to the net. I realize this is a 12 bore nitro Rifle, not a shotgun proofed for normal 11,000PSI shotshells.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DarylS
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Re: 12 Bore Tolley - Shooting RB [Re: DarylS]
      #128108 - 26/02/09 12:37 PM

Oh yeah - 3" chambered and heavy 12 bore meant for the big stuff - what a GUN!
I'd think BP loads would run in the 1,750fps range with 9 drams - surely the 3" case was meant for this. Does anyone know for sure.

It my memory - or is this gun nitro-proofed & is there a load on the table or tubes?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Sarg
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Re: 12 Bore Tolley - Shooting RB [Re: DarylS]
      #128150 - 26/02/09 08:36 PM

Thanks Daryl , yes Nitro proofed for a "Superior Load" but I don't know what that is & no load info on the rifle . I even rang the proof house but they could not help !

I did find on this sight reference to an old chart - 9 Drams for 1859Fps and one at 1806Fps

And H4227 is made by ADI as AR2205 - might try that next !

Thank you for your email help also !

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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
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Re: 12 Bore Tolley - Shooting RB [Re: DarylS]
      #128202 - 27/02/09 04:04 AM


I am not sure how much blackpowder the English considered maximum in a 12 bore 3" case. Certainly 9 drams would be getting there. Isn,t the Tolley an original BP gun? You have to start to wonder what load the designer of this gun had in mind. A 7 dram 12 bore conical gun weighs about 13lbs. An 8 dram 10 bore weighs in at about 14lbs with a 900gr bullet.






--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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DarylS
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Re: 12 Bore Tolley - Shooting RB [Re: gatsby]
      #128215 - 27/02/09 05:48 AM

My pleasure, Sarg!

I know 7 drams with a light 484gr. ball stung pretty good in my .12 bore with 2 3/4" cases. The gun was only 7 1/2 pounds. Brother said it spun me around like a weathercock first shot. After that it was controllable for rights and lefts - but split the stock, of course. Duplicated those BP loads using smokeless shotshell powders for about 1/3rd recoil. The gun still shot parallel from the bores - excellent at 1,550fps. Only thing I shot with it was a 180 pound mule deer doe at 105 yards - dead deer with 1" holes in and out just under the spine. I could almost swear I saw daylight through the hole -

At almost 15 pounds, Sarg's gun must be designed for 'the heavy' load. His smokeless loads are duplicating the 9 dram load now and shoot quite well for accuracy.

He's well-healed for a buffalo now - way to go SARG!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Sarg
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Re: 12 Bore Tolley - Shooting RB [Re: gatsby]
      #128279 - 27/02/09 07:31 PM

Yes , I think BP to start then re proofed in England when it came back from Africa for the Superior Load , I wish I knew what he was thinking as well !

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