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Hawken
.224 member


Reged: 22/02/08
Posts: 7
Loc: WI, USA
J. P. Sauer in 500 /450 No. 2 Musket
      #97496 - 24/02/08 03:37 PM


Just purchased my first double rifle it's a J.P Sauer in 500/450 No.2 Musket. Has any one had experience with this caliber and be willing to share insights? The Sauer was originally sold between 1875 and 1880 so it is a BP gun with Alexander Henry rifling. would like to shoot paper patch bullet with it, does anyone have a good source? The bore is .452

Love the rifle with Jones under lever, single set triggers, Toe cartridge box, and nice light engraving. But I want to make sure I spend as much time shooting it as looking at it.....

Thanks Much,

Cliff G.


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AkMike
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Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: J. P. Sauer in 500 /450 No. 2 Musket [Re: Hawken]
      #97498 - 24/02/08 03:49 PM

You have got to get pics of this beast posted here.
I know someone that shoots that round for BP long distance contests. I'll try to get him to come over here and share.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand


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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2437
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: J. P. Sauer in 500 /450 No. 2 Musket [Re: AkMike]
      #97503 - 24/02/08 04:37 PM

You say that rifle is a 500/450 Musket No. 2 but is that how the rifle is marked?

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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AkMike
.416 member


Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: J. P. Sauer in 500 /450 No. 2 Musket [Re: DoubleD]
      #97505 - 24/02/08 04:45 PM

I think Gert will have a ball with this one!

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand


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Hawken
.224 member


Reged: 22/02/08
Posts: 7
Loc: WI, USA
Re: J. P. Sauer in 500 /450 No. 2 Musket [Re: AkMike]
      #97541 - 25/02/08 12:46 AM


Mike,

Will try to post some pictures today.

DD,

No Markings on the rifle at all other than Distribution Firm. I have their letter head confirmation of 500/450 No 2 further confirmed by a chamber cast and barrel slug to confirm .452

Best Regards,

CG


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AkMike
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Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: J. P. Sauer in 500 /450 No. 2 Musket [Re: Hawken]
      #97587 - 25/02/08 07:49 AM

Peruse this thread about this cartridge. It might have the info for you.

http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/2651

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand


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belgmart
.275 member


Reged: 29/02/04
Posts: 78
Re: J. P. Sauer in 500 /450 No. 2 Musket [Re: Hawken]
      #97588 - 25/02/08 08:05 AM

CG,
If it's Henry rifling, odds are it's either 7-sided or 9-sided (odd no.), meaning your barrel slug measurement will be off - the #2 Musket usually is a .457 groove diameter. Would you mind posting a pic of your chamber cast, just to make sure?
Loading #2 is rather easy, and it is a quite accurate round - but you need to know what load your rifle was regulated for...
My recipes are as follows:
Either Swiss 1 1/2Fg or Fg, uncompressed or with minimal compression(around 80-84grs), veggie wad, and on top a rather heavy bullet seated to touch the rifling - Lyman Postell (457132) shoots quite well in my Martini's, lubed with a good BP lube. Gets about 1250fps in a 34" barrel. The 457125 would also work quite well. Size the bullet as required by your chambers, but somewhere around .458 would be fine - maybe even bigger if the fired brass will accept it.
I use fireformed cases, but if you want to use your rifle for hunting, you had better (neck-)size your cases. CH4D has an affordable die set, and they also have bushing neck sizer dies. Personally, I shoot fireformed brass, no sizing.
Check if your barrel doesn't have any load info on it - either visible, or under the forend.

For PP, suggest you 1st get familiar with the GG's - they are easier to get to shoot well, and don't require specialized equipment. below a diagram of the original Kynoch PP load for this round:

Basically, you'll need a .450-.451 grooveless slug, correct thickness of paper, lube wads etc. to make it work - it can be done, it is a lot of fun - but not how you want to start out with. Better to get some experience with the GG stuff, before taking the plunge with paper patching - it is quite a bit more delicate. FWIW, I also have a #2 Musket hunting rifle (single shot, Martini) which shoots just fine with the GG bullets mentioned - and yes, it also has Henry rifling. IMO Westley Richards did things just right when developing this round - it is a well-balanced cartridge, easy to load, very accurate and quite powerful - never mind the comments of CoTW. Call it a a Brit 45-90 (and then some...) I have now loaded up some 300gr bullets, which should give me around 1400 - 1500fps and a bit less recoil, we'll see how those work.
FWIW, my main use for the round is indeed LR BPCR shooting in a martini, and I do find it to be a quite accurate round, easy to load for - you just have to get the BP mentality..

--------------------
Martini's Rule!


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Hawken
.224 member


Reged: 22/02/08
Posts: 7
Loc: WI, USA
Re: J. P. Sauer in 500 /450 No. 2 Musket [Re: belgmart]
      #97752 - 27/02/08 02:13 PM

Belgmart,

Thanks much for the info, The chamber cast was not mine but that of the previous owner. I trust him as he is a skilled machinest. I can cast it my self and post a picture. Looks like I should slug the barrels myself as the previous owner said .452 based on his slug. It does shoot .252 bullets he provided quit well however I will verify. The previous owner built dies including a neck die so I am good in that respect. Also a paper patch bullet mold was started and not finished it is now in route to Pioneer Products to be finished up. I have the Lyman 457132 mould so I can also give them a try. I to am a BP long range shooter so I am familar with BP loading.

I will keep working on it and ask further questions if needed. Thanks much the drawing is excellent.

Best Regards,
CG


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Hawken
.224 member


Reged: 22/02/08
Posts: 7
Loc: WI, USA
Re: J. P. Sauer in 500 /450 No. 2 Musket [Re: AkMike]
      #97755 - 27/02/08 02:24 PM

AKMike,

Have the pictures ready but for the life of me I cann't figure out how to post them. Any Ideas?

CG


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AkMike
.416 member


Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
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Re: J. P. Sauer in 500 /450 No. 2 Musket [Re: Hawken]
      #97765 - 27/02/08 03:42 PM

I have no idea! But I suspect that Mehul Kamdar will be along shortly and expain it..

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand


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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2437
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: J. P. Sauer in 500 /450 No. 2 Musket [Re: Hawken]
      #97768 - 27/02/08 03:57 PM

Does this rifle have even number or odd number rifling...if odd it would lead me to believe the bore really is .459 especially if it Henry rifled. Henry rifling .452 + .007 = .459. Common mistake measuring odd numbered rifling slugs. But then of course it might be be Enfield rifled and that would be .452 + .003 = .455 or of course the measurement could be correct and is .452, but I have my doubts.

I won't go into the is it ".500/450 N. 2 Musket or just W.R. No. 2 Musket" argument. They aren't the same, just have about the same measurements. That's Gert and my favorite argument, best discussed when he get's to Montana next year.

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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Nakihunter
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Reged: 13/10/07
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Loc: New Zealand
Re: J. P. Sauer in 500 /450 No. 2 Musket [Re: DoubleD]
      #97821 - 28/02/08 09:05 AM

Cliff, i have emailed you. Pl send me the pics & I'll post them.

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.


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Hawken
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Reged: 22/02/08
Posts: 7
Loc: WI, USA
Re: J. P. Sauer in 500 /450 No. 2 Musket [Re: DoubleD]
      #97954 - 29/02/08 01:36 PM


DoubleD,

I just pushed a slug about 6 inches up the bore and then out. It is a odd number of grooves at 7. I am at a loss of how to measure it correctly by spinning it in the jaws of my caliper the biggest I get is 0.451 The slug shows a narrow groove (Land) and then a large flat (groove) from the bottom of this narrow groove to the flat on the otherside I get 0.437

The letter I have from Stiegele Fagd reads. "Your Double Barreled lever grip Rifle featuring Alexander Henry rifling with Serial number... in 500/450 No. 2 Musket caliber......." So there is no doubt it is Alexander Henry rifling.

The drawing above also suggests the paper patch bullet is .458 so I would guess that my measured 0.451 plus one Grove of .007 puts me at 0.458 non the less by looking at the slug it suggests that his rifling style would be very forgiving with an undersized slug.

Hope you can make sense of all this.......................


Thanks Much,

CG


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Nakihunter
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Re: J. P. Sauer in 500 /450 No. 2 Musket [Re: Hawken]
      #97967 - 29/02/08 03:38 PM

Pictures of Hawken's rifle. I am sure he will add some notes.













--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5284
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: J. P. Sauer in 500 /450 No. 2 Musket [Re: Nakihunter]
      #97979 - 29/02/08 10:41 PM

Cliff, that's a very nice rifle. Thanks for posting photos. Would you mind if the photos are also posted on the Double Rifle Photo & Archive Forum? If you give me the go-ahead, I'll be glad to do it for you if you aren't up to posting photos yet.

Do you know what weight bullet the rifle is regulated for? That's going to be the variable most influential on regulation of the load.

Paul Matthews has a book titled, The Paper Jacket, which is available various places, including Huntingtons. It is a great primer on loading paper patched cartridges. Like somebody said above, paper patched bullets aren't really the starting point for reloading, but you certainly can step up to it if you are an experienced reloader.

If you have a good idea of bullet weight and aren't ready for paper patched bullets, you should try bullets from Cast Performance in .458". They are excellent bullets and can be bought from Midway or directly from Cast Performance on the internet.

Good luck, and be careful,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Hawken
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Reged: 22/02/08
Posts: 7
Loc: WI, USA
Re: J. P. Sauer in 500 /450 No. 2 Musket [Re: CptCurl]
      #98032 - 01/03/08 12:33 PM

Curl,

You are welcome to post the pictures in the Archives. With a couple of hints I may be able to get it done. Just seems I can not past a picture into the post. I even tried to paste into microsoft word and then back to the post with no luck.

Thanks, for the tips on bullets. I have loaded plent of BP rounds so the paper does not bother me but I will have to looke into the cast performance bullets for an easier and quicker solution. Am thinking I will take the drawing of the round posted and have a bullet mold made to these dimensions and go from there. I did shoot some .452 360 grain bullets in it with 96 grains of goex express 2F and it regulated quite well.

Have shot long range with Brett Danielson so I will corner him this sping on paper patch finer points.

I have no idea of the bullet weight the rifle was regulated for I know cartridges of the world leads me to believe 480 grain. But I guess have the fun will be figuring it out.

Regards, CG


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Hawken
.224 member


Reged: 22/02/08
Posts: 7
Loc: WI, USA
Re: J. P. Sauer in 500 /450 No. 2 Musket [Re: Nakihunter]
      #98034 - 01/03/08 12:52 PM

Nakihunter,

I don't have to many notes to add. Here is what I know. The rifle is marked with the distributors name "V.C. Stiegele gun maker to the royal Bavarian court" of course that is not written in English. I have letter dated 10.1.2000 from them saying the rifle was made by J.P. Sauer & Son in Suhl and was sold by there firm some time between 1875 and 1880.

I also have paperwork with the original request to bring it into the US in the 1999. This letter point to the Hercules symbol under the right barrel as proof of J.P Sauer being the maker. It appears that it was auctioned in 1999 as a Las Vegas Antique Arms Show.

The letter states the gun is pre 1891 based on the absence of proof markers which we put into effect in 1891.

These documents do have email addresses that I will follow up on to see if I could possibly get some further history.

I am now at the end of my knowledge. The gun is tight and very well made. I just love handling it. It's my first double but hopefully not the last.

Best Regards, CG


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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: J. P. Sauer in 500 /450 No. 2 Musket [Re: Hawken]
      #98069 - 02/03/08 02:50 AM

Cliff,

You have a real beauty. Congratulations!

Hope you get hunting with her soon and we get to see some hunt reports and trophy pics here.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5284
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Re: J. P. Sauer in 500 /450 No. 2 Musket [Re: Hawken]
      #98074 - 02/03/08 03:19 AM

Quote:

Curl,

You are welcome to post the pictures in the Archives.




Done!

Here's the thread:

J. P. Sauer 500/450 No. 2 Musket

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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