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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Buffalo CHARGES!!
      #97354 - 23/02/08 01:36 PM

Old film clips here but fun--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g05cGDBD3b4&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylJMCrwzNNc&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tricz5Iy1qg&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UH3ype5_TNY&feature=related

Wouldn't mind seeing all the movies to see how his technique changes.

After watching these clips a 500NE Double sounds better if shooting and nearly missing the CNS on a charging bull than smaller calbers missing--

I do recall on AR someone(Saeed?) was saying smaller calibers for CNS shots on BUFF-no problem!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
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Re: Buffalo CHARGES!! [Re: hoppdoc]
      #97372 - 23/02/08 09:23 PM

Is a bigger more powerful rifle better on Buff??

Maybe this is a question that you would never have to think about.Yup, you could hunt Africa for decades with a PH backup and never need to even consider the need for a "heavy".Selective shot placement will kill them ever time.

But--BUT-- if TSHTF and you are actually unexpectedly charged my a Buff meaning to dismember and stomp you, just maybe that bigger gun could turn him easier than your smaller caliber rifle!!

Personally I will take the abuse of a bigger rifle any day(would I even feel the recoil?) over the bad feeling in the gut that things are gonna turn out real ugly if a less than perfect shot is made!!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Buffalo CHARGES!! [Re: hoppdoc]
      #97397 - 24/02/08 04:16 AM

Interesting question, Doc - I see clients flinching from the recoil of their 30/06's, 7mm mags and .300 mag. on moose or bear. It is a rare client who doesn't. There are some, but not as many as you might think.
; Now, take these average paying hunters and put a .500 or .577 nitro in their hands, have them load it with 2 finger sized ctg. and they won't be able to hold it steady just due to the anticipated recoil, let alone after firing a 'test' shot.
: Yeah - I know, there isn't anyone here who flinches, the bigger the better, yadda, yadda yadda. Trouble is, all of those charges were started by someone hitting poorly with a much smaller calibre. A poor hit, from what I've read,(and observed on ungulates and bear) ends up with the same scenario as if a Nitro Express had been used. It all boilss down to 'enough gun' and accuracy.
: If you can shoot a 9.3x62, or .375H&H just like a varmint gun, yet you flinch a bit with the .500 nitro, then the 9.3 or .375 is the gun to use.
; This is just my opinion, mind you - with no experience in Africa but plenty here.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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poprivit
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Reged: 09/04/07
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Re: Buffalo CHARGES!! [Re: DarylS]
      #97671 - 26/02/08 08:13 AM

Sure, you CAN kill a Cape Buffalo with a .243! However, a few years ago, as I put the fourth .416 into a buf at a measured 6 yards, I had a few thoughts about maybe I should have brought a bigger gun - like a 30 mm Vulcan.

Dayrl S - yeah, most people do jump around a bit when shooting anything over .400. Me, I'm taking a .458 Lott to Botswana April 1 (opening day) for buf, and yes, it do kick a bit. My solution - shoot it a lot. After a while the pain goes away and if you haven't developed a good twitch, you should be able to put three rounds in the black at 500 yards off shooting sticks.

'Course it takes a while to get over the pain ...

I hold the gun as tight as possible with it pulled hard into my shoulder and I have a thick shooting jacket.

'Course it takes a while to get over the pain ...

Also, I'm a real he-man, able to bite nails and eat rails ..

Damn, I wish it'd quit hurting, though ...

BTW: the guy who said you don't hear the shot or feel the recoil when shooting DG needs medical help for his delusions.

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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: Buffalo CHARGES!! [Re: poprivit]
      #97675 - 26/02/08 09:42 AM

Poprivit,

That guy would be, amoungst others, me. I hunt buff and eles with a 458wm shooting 500grs at 2145fps and 450grs at 2200fps and, honestly, the report is almost non-existant, the recoil just enough to let me know that the rifle fired.

It has been that way since I shot my first buff and hasn't changed a lick. Recoil at the range is a different matter, but that is something that you can build a tolerance for. Fewer rounds more often are the trick rather than more rounds less frequently.

JPK

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Buffalo CHARGES!! [Re: JPK]
      #97678 - 26/02/08 09:54 AM

You're right- lots of shooting with something light, throw in some heavies, then back to shooting something that doens't hurt. I've found group shooting the .17 centrefire good for "between the .458's" to show me I need more work on the bigger ones. If you don't see the hole appear in the paper or the gopher flip, you KNOW you closed your eye.
; Good normal ballistics, btw, JPK - I can't understand why there are some still people today who think it takes a .458 LOTT to do that.
; I know where you're coming from, shooting game with heavy rifles and not feeling it - can't see the game because the rifle's barrel and stock is in the way climbing though, but feel the recoil, quite frankly, no.
: Trouble is, there are people who can afford to hunt in Africa, so do, who can't handle a rifle that's capable - even the mild recoiling .375H&H is WAYYYYYYY too much. The game suffers and charges result.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Buffalo CHARGES!! [Re: DarylS]
      #97682 - 26/02/08 11:20 AM

Quote:

Interesting question, Doc - I see clients flinching from the recoil of their 30/06's, 7mm mags and .300 mag. on moose or bear. It is a rare client who doesn't. There are some, but not as many as you might think.
; Now, take these average paying hunters and put a .500 or .577 nitro in their hands, have them load it with 2 finger sized ctg. and they won't be able to hold it steady just due to the anticipated recoil, let alone after firing a 'test' shot.



I have a theory. If these guys flinching with their .30-06's were introduced to a .375 or 9.3 and then shot their .30's again, they would find the recoil mild and not a problem at all anymore. As long as they don't start flinching with everything ...

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
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Re: Buffalo CHARGES!! [Re: NitroX]
      #97684 - 26/02/08 11:47 AM

Nitrox,

I think you are on the money with that.

Daryl,

Funny, but when I shoot my 458wm double at game, there is no muzzle rise either.

I've seen myself on video shooting elephants and there is just no muzzle rise. When I shoot for practice, I rock and roll and there is muzzle rise though. I think it is being keyed up, similar to not hearing a lot of the report or feeling the recoil.

I've seen the same "phenomenon" watching African DVD's. For instance, when PH Andrew Dawson stops a charging ele in Boddington on Buffalo, there is no muzzle rise, same when he shoots at a buff. The infamous MS suffers from little muzzle rise, especially given the big NE's, 577 and 600 he is often shooting.

JPK

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Buffalo CHARGES!! [Re: JPK]
      #97686 - 26/02/08 12:16 PM

Muzzle rise also depends on the stance one has. If you are standing properly and solidly with a good stance the rise will be less. I was surprise once how much and high my barrels flipped up when shooting pigs from the front seat of a jeep with my .450 double. They were crossing in front and I shot over the bonnet. The barrels seemed to flip up almost vertically.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: Buffalo CHARGES!! [Re: NitroX]
      #97688 - 26/02/08 01:20 PM

Another Favorite

http://youtube.com/watch?v=O3MMFq2o144
and the end of the charge again
http://youtube.com/watch?v=6sn2eOYlMrg&feature=related
Think they felt any recoil??

Now watch "Paul" shoot at his buffalo and the recoil of the rifle.Wonder what caIiber it was? Maybe he was anxious or he is scared the rifle will maim him!!
Glad he got his Buff!!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NaWOSHRII9w&feature=related

Moral--Be sure "enough gun" isn't Too Much Gun!!.


--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (26/02/08 01:28 PM)

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26998
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Buffalo CHARGES!! [Re: NitroX]
      #97699 - 26/02/08 04:08 PM

Most of those guys who flinch with their .30/06's shoot almost a whole row of ammo a year - that would be a side-ways row, I think.
; As to stance, my first .458's muzzle climbed no matter what I'm shooting at. The straighter stocked M70 didn't climb as much as come back. My .375 doesn't climb at all.
; It's all in the stock and how it fits, seems to me. I'm always relaxed shooting at game - get a bit excited when walking up to it if it's a big moose, but otherwise, not very ruffled with most game. Part of the climb is the relaxed hold I'd think.
: Big bears can make the neck hair stand up a bit, but when the sights are on them, dead still, rock solid. Wish I could hold that well during competition.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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JPK
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Re: Buffalo CHARGES!! [Re: DarylS]
      #97723 - 27/02/08 02:01 AM

Daryl,, You write, "Part of the climb is the relaxed hold I'd think."

I think this is on the money. As I mentioned, when I am practicing I "rock and roll" with the recoil and there is muzzle rise.

I also think that there is an absence of muzzle rise shooting at "moving" game, which is what happens with elephants. You approach with the rifle ready to mount until the elephant turns to you and then you mount and shoot very quickly. So you are both keyed up, because you are damn close, and inmotion, mounting and shooting as the ele turns to you.

JPK

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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: Buffalo CHARGES!! [Re: JPK]
      #97772 - 27/02/08 04:55 PM

My only problem with the gun rising without a firm hold is that the bullet impact changes somewhat at distance.When I hunker down an open sighted rifle shoots to a different point than when I let it "roll back".I know that this is related to the near instaneous bullet in the barrel time.Maybe the backward recoil angainst the shoulder contour changes the POI of the barrel at the time of firing.

Is this not others experience??

Edited by hoppdoc (27/02/08 05:00 PM)

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: Buffalo CHARGES!! [Re: DarylS]
      #97792 - 28/02/08 12:17 AM

Quote:

Part of the climb is the relaxed hold I'd think.



Very true with any rifle. Depending on stock shape and hold, even a .250 Savage will climb noticeably.

A most perfect example of this can be demonstrated in submachinegun shooting. When I first started subgun shooting I used a normal stance and found bursts rising high immediately after the first shot with very poor patterning the result. Lots of practice later, I had bursts landing in a close pattern like a tight-choked shotgun. The difference was leaning into the gun and almost pushing it forward with the burst, holding down at the same time. Standing up straight and tall allowed the gun to rise and prevented any sort of control on subsequent shots. A very good lesson in "follow through" of a sort. Shooting a full auto gun with a 12 lb trigger makes for a very revealing demonstration of just how much the hold of any gun can and does impact ability to see the target after firing a shot. Nothing teaches that like a burp gun.

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: Buffalo CHARGES!! [Re: 9.3x57]
      #98128 - 02/03/08 08:46 PM

More/different video's of same charges on "choose how he wants to die" MS and his excellent Double shooting--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNbt0zvmBPE&feature=related

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (02/03/08 08:51 PM)

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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
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Re: Buffalo CHARGES!! [Re: hoppdoc]
      #98576 - 07/03/08 08:13 AM

Best way to stop a buffalo charging...is to take away his credit cards!

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ant458
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Re: Buffalo CHARGES!! [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #103984 - 01/05/08 01:16 PM

hey every body ive never had to stop a cape buffalo but had to stop a chargeing water buffalo about 2
years ago me and a buddy were looking for a good bull and found one late in day my buddy shot it in the lungs with his 475 i was shooting my 577 and my 3006 model 700 the bull ran about 96 yards and stoped when we got up to it it charged it took 4 rounds from the 475 and 2rounds from the 577 i was able to stop it with 2 rounds to the head with my 3006 we found two 475 slugs and 1 577 slug
unable to find the rest

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500Nitro
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Re: Buffalo CHARGES!! [Re: hoppdoc]
      #103986 - 01/05/08 01:23 PM

Quote:

My only problem with the gun rising without a firm hold is that the bullet impact changes somewhat at distance.When I hunker down an open sighted rifle shoots to a different point than when I let it "roll back".I know that this is related to the near instaneous bullet in the barrel time.Maybe the backward recoil angainst the shoulder contour changes the POI of the barrel at the time of firing.

Is this not others experience??




Nope, not my experience but you may have a very sensitive DR
and not one I would like if it is that sensitive to changes
of hold / recoil / follow through.

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xausa
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Re: Buffalo CHARGES!! [Re: 500Nitro]
      #104027 - 01/05/08 11:34 PM

When preparing for my first African hunt, I loaded my 8 3/4 pound .505 wildcat bolt gun with cast bullets and light loads (535 grain bullets at around 1200 fps.) I would take the rifle and a pocket full of ammunition with me walking around the farm, practicing mounting the gun, releasing the safety, and firing the shot at assorted stumps and rocks. The recoil was no more than that of a heavy waterfowl load in a 12 guage.

During load development and chronographing I shot the rifle off the bench using a homemade "lead sled" which added about 25 pounds to the actual weight of the rifle and reduced the recoil to a powerful shove. In Africa, I confirmed my zero by shooting over the hood of the hunting car with a folded up towel under the shoulder of my jacket.

As a result, when the time came to shoot at game there was no recoil anticipation and no felt recoil. I attribute the latter to the same phenomenon I have experienced in the duck blind, shooting 3 1/2" Magnum shells at passing ducks. Concentrating on hitting a rapidly moving target instead of anticipating the recoil cancelled out the effect on my shoulder. I feel as though in such circumstances the body is not braced against the recoil and as a result absorbs the energy in such a way as to negate the effect.

As 9.3 points out, stance has a great deal to so with how recoil is absorbed. Leaning into the rifle puts the body in a position far more capable of dealing with the force of the recoil than standing upright. This is the stance used by most trap shooters and its effect, particularly in shooting doubles, is obvious.

Incidentally, another part of my African preparation involved shooting skeet with a bolt action shotgun. If you can consistantly hit doubles with such a gun, starting from the low gun position, you have the makings of an excellant instinctive rifle shooter.

I also shot skeet with my .458 Krieghoff double rifle, using .410 shells. The plastic wad column protected the bore, but the fired cases were no longer useable.

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