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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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BigIron
.224 member


Reged: 12/01/04
Posts: 10
Loc: Texas
Safari Express .458 Update
      #9732 - 21/02/04 12:01 PM

Hi guys
The big day finally came after a nearly 3 week wait. I'm on the road at 9:00am for my 160 mile round trip drive to pick up my new Winchester M70 Safari Express .458 Magnum. I arrive at the dealers fill out the paperwork give the gun a quick once over and I'm back on the road. I arrive back home and open the box to wipe the gun down, run a clean patch thru the bore, load 100 510grn SP rounds in the truck and head to the range.

I pick the gun up out of the box and shoulder it thinking about how good the rifle feels and then I notice the sights are mounted at about 11:30 instead of 12 o'clock on top of the barrel. I double check and sure enough the sights are mounted to the left of the center of the barrel. By now I'm getting a sick feeling.

I go back to the box to pick up the bolt and notice there is a white substance surrounding a mound of rust in the seam of the bolt near the handle (It appears to be bluing salts that were not washed away after the bluing process.

I call Winchester and speak to a very nice gentleman who stated they will take care of me and will mail me a UPS return label.

I know I should have taken a better look at the rifle before leaving the dealer but as usual I was in a hurry to beat the heavy Friday afternoon traffic.

Hope everybody's day went better.

I will be updating as I hear back from Winchester.

Scott

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475Guy
.400 member


Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: Safari Express .458 Update [Re: BigIron]
      #9745 - 21/02/04 02:55 PM

Dude, I'm sorry to hear that once again somebody gets it from Winchester. Today's product line seems to be lacking in workmanship and craftsmanship. Hopefully the factory can fix it to your satisfaction. Your next jaunt out with it is see if it'll feed reliably. Good Luck.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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BigIron
.224 member


Reged: 12/01/04
Posts: 10
Loc: Texas
Re: Safari Express .458 Update [Re: 475Guy]
      #9751 - 21/02/04 03:50 PM

.475,

I will be enclosing a lengthy letter pointing out the problems. The sad part is the wood that Wichester calls semi-fancy walnut is quite nice with a bold grain pattern. It probably would be cheaper for Winchester to replace the rifle instead of repairing it. If they replace it the way my luck runs I'll end up with a stock that looks like pine.

I nearly bought a CZ Safari American in .458 Lott (and probably should have) but at the time I started looking CZ was still waiting for the American stocks to arrive and after I spoke to CZ by phone and found out the American stocks don't have any cross bolts I was a little leary (I know the one in the G&A article shows one cross bolt in the rear). The fellow I spoke with at CZ said they had tested the stock and found it needed no cross bolts but if the stock did crack the rifle comes with a 5 year warranty. I also asked about the .458 WM barrels rechambered to Lott and the words Win.Mag XXXXX out and Lott hand stamped in. I was told thats how all the Lott barrels would be for now. That kind of turned me off on the gun but it's still a nice looking rifle.

Maybe Winchester can fix it right. I hope so.

Take care
Scott

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475Guy
.400 member


Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: Safari Express .458 Update [Re: BigIron]
      #9754 - 21/02/04 04:49 PM

Maybe it's not too late to get your money back. If at the first signs of anything not right, get a refund. Go ahead and get the CZ if your heart so desires. If you can spend money on an overpriced new Mod 70, at least check out a Ruger RSM. I have 4 of them and love em. The wood is great, triggers all break 3 1/2# and under, cosmetic rib with folding leaf sights, and will all shoot full loads under 1 1/2" at 100 yds. On top of that, you really don't need to do anything with stock to keep it from cracking. Anyways, you have options.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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BigIron
.224 member


Reged: 12/01/04
Posts: 10
Loc: Texas
Re: Safari Express .458 Update [Re: 475Guy]
      #9756 - 21/02/04 05:17 PM

Believe it or not when I set out to get a big bore my choices were:

Ruger RSM .458 Lott
CZ 550 American Safari Magnum .458 Lott
Win M70 .458 WM

I got with my local dealer and he checked and could not locate a RSM so I called Ruger and they told me the rifle was out of stock at the factory but another run would be done in the near future.

The CZ Americans were not available at that time so I called Winchester and was told the next production run would be at the end of April.

Another dealer in the D/FW area located two M70's at a distributor in NY and thats how I ended up with mine.

I guess I should have held out for my first choice.

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475Guy
.400 member


Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: Safari Express .458 Update [Re: BigIron]
      #9795 - 22/02/04 07:38 AM

Dude, always go with your instincts. Your initial choice would've given you immense joy. Like I said, the wood on the new Ruger RSM's are absolutely beautiful, at least mine are. Some time ago, I had just gotten my converted Ruger 375 Ultra back and showed it to the head of the Richmond TAC guy and he got a woody. He didn't want to hand it back to me, I had to threaten him with bodily harm if he didn't give it back. He even had a scenario where he might conceivably use it in a tactical situation.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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458RugerNo1
.224 member


Reged: 04/03/04
Posts: 24
Loc: Mtns of the Desert Southwest, ...
Re: Safari Express .458 Update [Re: 475Guy]
      #10872 - 04/03/04 04:22 PM

What a bummer! Sorry to hear about the disappointment in having a new rifle you've had home for an entire 5 minutes end up not being right! The crushing blow would be difficult to bear I can imagine. I've beent thru the agonizing "wait" for that new rifle to be shipped and arrive, but luckily I've never been met with that kind of disappointment.

I'm sure Winchester will hustle it back to you Priority Shipping after making it right. Let us know how it goes?

--------------------
God Bless old Elmer Keith!

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BFaucett
.333 member


Reged: 13/01/04
Posts: 451
Loc: Houston, Texas
Re: Safari Express .458 Update [Re: 458RugerNo1]
      #10874 - 04/03/04 05:24 PM

BigIron,

Sorry to hear about your problems with your new Model 70 in .458 WM. I know the feeling of being disappointed with one!

I purchased one (Model 70 in .458) and had the same experience with the sights being crooked. Sent it back to Winchester. Got the rifle back and it had a new barrel on it. The new sights were leaning the other way!!! I then decided to take the action/barrel out of the stock and have a look at the bedding. The secondary recoil lug, on the barrel, was not aligned with the bore. (The bearing surface was not at a right angle to the bore. It was welded on crooked.) And it looked like it had been welded on by a semi-trained monkey! Horrible work. I soon traded it off. I hope you have better luck. Be sure to pull the action and check the secondary recoil lug.

I also later purchased a Model 70 in .375 H&H. It had similar problems also. I got rid of it. I'm finished buying new, current production Winchesters. Winchester (USRA) really needs to implement a better quality control program.

Rugers aren't all perfect either but I've had much better luck, over all, with them. I'm a Ruger fan now. I have a M77 RSM in .375 H&H and one in .416 Rigby. I also have a No. 1 in .375 H&H. I'm very happy with them.

-Bob F.

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luv2safari
.400 member


Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1408
Loc: United States
Re: Safari Express .458 Update [Re: BigIron]
      #10875 - 04/03/04 05:26 PM

BigIron,

You might consider getting your money back, if possible. I have posted here in other threads the dreadful problems I and a hunting buddy had with the Winchesters...jammed with a full magazine and other problems, and poor workmanship.

I, too, wanted the old style Winchester quality and extractor in a large caliber, but didn't want to pay the obscene prices asked for the pre-64s.

Winjammer doesn't have their act together, and the public is finding that out.

I took my first buffalo with a CZ550 in 416 Rigby; it was a tack driver, but a bit rough around the edges as far as exterior finish work and stock fitting. Everything worked perfectly, however, and the sights were right on with Federals with 410 gr Woodleighs.

I now have a Ruger RSM and think it is about as good as it gets...for the money...Just get rid of their awful trigger and put in a $75.00 Timney. I would "unload" the Winchester and wait for the Ruger.IMHO

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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wombat
.300 member


Reged: 06/03/04
Posts: 163
Loc: Australia
Re: Safari Express .458 Update [Re: BigIron]
      #11048 - 06/03/04 05:00 PM

Sorry to hear of your problems.
They are not new!
There have been so many problems with Winchesters
here in Australia we thought we were getting your seconds.
I have just recently traded my Safari Express Mod 70 in 416
for a CZ in 416 Rigby.
By the time I traded it in the Win. had its 3rd factory stock (replaced at their expense),had endless expensive work performed to (unsuccessfully) make it feed and had
let me down badly in Africa.
GET YOUR MONEY BACK NOW!

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BigIron
.224 member


Reged: 12/01/04
Posts: 10
Loc: Texas
Re: Safari Express .458 Update [Re: wombat]
      #11083 - 07/03/04 05:13 AM

Hey Guys
I hope I have better luck when I get the rifle back. At least I know I didn't get the only lemon in the bunch.

Winchester should have it by now and based on the detailed problems in the flaming ( but tactful) letter I sent with the gun it would be cheaper for them to replace the whole thing.

I will post a detailed report when I get it back.

Thanks for all the info.
Scott

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NONE
.300 member


Reged: 15/12/03
Posts: 110
Re: Safari Express .458 Update [Re: BigIron]
      #11087 - 07/03/04 05:58 AM

I have never owned one of the newer versions though I have heard many bad things as stated here. I do have a pre 64 in 375H&H and love that rifle. I didn't think of it as overpriced as many say they are, maybe I just found a good deal. Its a shame American gun manufactures are slipping in so many ways with what once was a good name.

James F. Nixon III

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475Guy
.400 member


Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: Safari Express .458 Update [Re: NONE]
      #11089 - 07/03/04 06:32 AM

I agree with you absolutely. It is a damn shame. Winchester was the standard that all other bolt guns were judged by. Why do you think that Ruger made such headway into the American market and has garnered the market share that is making Rem and Win turn green? The big boys were getting too big for their britches and felt that it was their way or go somewhere else. If success won't cloud the Ruger people's judgement, they'll come out on top. It's just a shame that bean counters are ensconced at the Ruger headquarters now.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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ThomasEdwards
.300 member


Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 246
Loc: Newport Beach, CA
Re: Safari Express .458 Update [Re: 475Guy]
      #11090 - 07/03/04 06:53 AM

...if i am not mistaken, rugers is now headed by its former general counsel (lawyer)...

...the phenomena that you highlighted actually has a broader macro-economics basis, and can be traced to the country's movement away from a manufacturing base to a service-oriented base...tho there are pockets of true commitment to the craft, such as butch's outfit...

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475Guy
.400 member


Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: Safari Express .458 Update [Re: ThomasEdwards]
      #11092 - 07/03/04 09:43 AM

As you say, those guys are few and far between. At one time when Bill Ruger was alive, you could actually call the factory and be connected to his office about any problem or maybe special features that you would like. If Ruger would come with a small custom shop, they would be on the top of the heap.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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luv2safari
.400 member


Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1408
Loc: United States
Re: Safari Express .458 Update [Re: BigIron]
      #11137 - 08/03/04 06:13 AM

BigIron,

Follow this advice...I MEAN this! If you do take the Winchester to Africa, load the magazine one round short!!! The feeding problems are almost always with the first round from a full magazine.

All four of the ones I owned/tried fed from the one short loading. Three out of four jammed every time with the magazines full.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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BFaucett
.333 member


Reged: 13/01/04
Posts: 451
Loc: Houston, Texas
Re: Safari Express .458 Update [Re: ThomasEdwards]
      #11183 - 08/03/04 04:17 PM

...if i am not mistaken, rugers is now headed by its former general counsel (lawyer)...


William B. Ruger, Jr.
Chairman of the Board of Directors and Chief Executive Officer as of October 24, 2000. Prior thereto, Vice Chairman, Senior Executive Officer from July 18, 1995, and President and Chief Operating Officer from March 1, 1998. Governor, Sporting Arms & Ammunition Manufactures' Institute, Trustee, St. Paul's School, the Salisbury School, the Wildlife Management Institiute, and the Cody Firearms Museum of the Buffalo Bill Historical Center.

Stephen L. Sanetti
Vice Chairman, President and Chief Operating Officer as of May 6, 2003. Previously, Vice Chairman, Senior Executive Vice President and General Counsel as of October 24, 2000 and Vice President and General Counsel from March 11, 1993. Member, Board of Governors, National Shooting Sports Foundation and Hunting & Shooting Sports Heritage Foundation from 2002.

http://www.ruger.com/Corporate/SH-Board.html

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atkinson6
.375 member


Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho
Re: Safari Express .458 Update [Re: BFaucett]
      #11215 - 09/03/04 04:26 AM

I don't know why anyone would go to Africa or on any expensive hunt with a rifle that was not throughly tested..that doesn't even make since, but I see a lot of failures every year from every make and caliber...

Any factory rifle made today on an assembly line is likely to fail...One of the reasons I like a custom Mauser or even an old pre 64 Mod. 70, they just keep on ticking.

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luv2safari
.400 member


Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1408
Loc: United States
Re: Safari Express .458 Update [Re: atkinson6]
      #11242 - 09/03/04 12:18 PM

Ray,

I think that Winchester ought to buy up all those Safari Express's and ship them off to Australia...to be crushed!

No, mates, you didn't get seconds...well, maybe so...all the 70 Safaris are seconds, except for the SS synthetics. They have seemed to pretty good and reliable guns. Every one I have encountered (5) has functioned and shot well. I wish I had not sold mine to buy the blue/walnut version. Winchester is the new proud owner of that one.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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Dark_Helmet
.333 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA
Re: Safari Express .458 Update [Re: luv2safari]
      #11306 - 10/03/04 12:26 PM

wow, this all makes me feel MUCH better about buying a No 1!!!!!

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

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BigIron
.224 member


Reged: 12/01/04
Posts: 10
Loc: Texas
Re: Safari Express .458 Update [Re: BigIron]
      #11671 - 16/03/04 06:13 PM

Received a card in the mail today from Browning/Winchester letting me know they have the rifle. I don't know how long it will be but the way the card reads it may be awhile before I get it back. Time will tell.

Scott

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Will
.333 member


Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Safari Express .458 Update [Re: BigIron]
      #11673 - 16/03/04 07:15 PM

I don't know how serious the rust is on the bolt but it would seem that the path of least resistance would be to just have the barrel tapped with new mounting holes, and be done with it.

I also don't know if you are actually going to use the open sights, but I replaced mine with NECG ones anyway, so crooked sights were a non-issue.

All current mass-production guns have their problems these days. Everyone wants a $5,000 rifle for $800, and many complain when they don't get it.

In the wosrt case, I figure if I get a good action out of it for the $800 it is not that bad a deal afterall.

By the time I have it rebarreled, a new stock and sights, and all that stuff, it is up to about $2300.

It seems to me that I cannot buy a $2300 rifle for $800 either.

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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BigIron
.224 member


Reged: 12/01/04
Posts: 10
Loc: Texas
Re: Safari Express .458 Update [Re: Will]
      #11675 - 16/03/04 07:58 PM

Hi Will
I see your point. It is sad that some firearms company's don't know what the words "fit and finish" are.

I guess maybe I was expecting too much to think Winchester would still be the grand name it was many years ago but if what I ended up with is an example of the current quality I can't believe they are still in business.

A person should not have to spend thousands to get a rifle that has straight sights and and be rust free. If this is the case I see now why so many build their own.

Take care
Scott





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Shoot4_FUN_58
.224 member


Reged: 20/05/04
Posts: 3
Re: Safari Express .458 Update [Re: BigIron]
      #15018 - 20/05/04 07:23 AM

I just bought a new Classic in 458 win myself. Out of the box it looked PERFECT. However, after a few shots the wood had really small chips around the recoil lugs! They are about the size of a pen point but there are like 50 of them! Now I have to box it up and send it back. My old Win Super Express in same caliber had the stock crack after 6-7 shots, at least they fixed that.

Funny you guys should mention the jamming problems, I've noticed mine was feeding oddly too, even at the range! That's just one more thing for them to fix.

You guys are right about Rugers, I think they are the best out of the major American companies by far. Not always the prettiest, but they WORK. My Ruger .338 Win Mag is my favorite, most accurate rifle.

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RLI
.375 member


Reged: 01/10/03
Posts: 534
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Safari Express .458 Update [Re: Shoot4_FUN_58]
      #15020 - 20/05/04 08:04 AM

I have a Winchester "Classic Safari Express" 70, .375H&H in Left Hand and I have never had a problem with it in any way. I did look over Right and Left hand rifles and the lefties seem to be better finished.
RLI

--------------------
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne

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