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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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RLI
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Loc: Victoria, Australia
Holding triggers while closing Double, is it ok?
      #96193 - 07/02/08 04:29 PM

I have read a similar question before but can not find it,

I have a english double Box lock ejector non auto safety my question is if I hold both triggers while closing the action it uncocks the rifle is this ok to do or does it affect the rifle in a bad way? or should I just use snap caps?

RLI

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"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne

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NE450No2
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Re: Holding triggers while closing Double, is it ok? [Re: RLI]
      #96197 - 07/02/08 06:07 PM

I have been told that it is ok with an extractor double, but not with an ejector double.

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4seventy
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Re: Holding triggers while closing Double, is it ok? [Re: NE450No2]
      #96198 - 07/02/08 07:33 PM

Quote:

I have been told that it is ok with an extractor double, but not with an ejector double.



Yeah, (only with non-auto safety) it works ok with non-ejector doubles, but is not a good practice with ejector guns.
If your double has ejectors I'd say don't do it.
It may depend on what type of ejector system is used as well.

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RLI
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Re: Holding triggers while closing Double, is it ok? [Re: 4seventy]
      #96199 - 07/02/08 07:44 PM

Yes it has ejectors, in what way does it effect the ejectors?, Thanks

--------------------
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne

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4seventy
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Re: Holding triggers while closing Double, is it ok? [Re: RLI]
      #96200 - 07/02/08 08:06 PM

I have tried it a long time back on my .470 which has Southgate ejectors and something didn't work right, but I couldn't remember what happened.
Just tried it again now.
It seems to fire both locks just as the action is about to fully close, then it fires both ejectors when you open the gun.
With a non ejector, you can usually ease the action closed with the triggers held back, and it will gently lower the tumblers, thereby releasing the tension on the vee springs.
With my ejector gun, no matter how carefully you close the action, (with triggers held back) the locks release with a snap just before the action closes.
Like I said, different ejector systems will most likely behave in different ways when doing this.

The thing is that the ejector mechanism and the lock mechanism are designed to operate in a specific sequence, and are timed to operate correctly during normal use of the gun.
Closing an ejector gun with the triggers held back, completely alters the sequence and timing, and who knows what damage could be done.

Bad idea I reckon.


Edited by 4seventy (07/02/08 08:19 PM)

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4seventy
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Re: Holding triggers while closing Double, is it ok? [Re: RLI]
      #96201 - 07/02/08 08:33 PM

Quote:

should I just use snap caps?




Most store bought snap caps are total junk IMO.
Worse still, are the homemade versions that use old cartridge cases with some sort of rubber jammed in the primer pocket!

Decocking is best done with a decocking bar IMO.

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Paul
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Re: Holding triggers while closing Double, is it ok? [Re: 4seventy]
      #96203 - 07/02/08 09:11 PM

4seventy, old chap,
can you remind me about decocking bars, please, Is that something like putting 20-cent pieces against the firing pins and snapping them? If so, is it then possible to reassemble the gun/rifle to store in the gun cabinet?

Thanks
- Paul

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4seventy
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Re: Holding triggers while closing Double, is it ok? [Re: Paul]
      #96207 - 07/02/08 10:09 PM

Quote:

4seventy, old chap,
can you remind me about decocking bars, please, Is that something like putting 20-cent pieces against the firing pins and snapping them? If so, is it then possible to reassemble the gun/rifle to store in the gun cabinet?



Paul
No, decocking bars are nothing like coins, and I would never suggest that anyone should decock a double by using the coin method that you describe.
The coin method is just as useless as using cheap snapcaps IMO.

I don't have any trouble reassembling any of my doubles after they have been decocked using a decocking bar.

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Marrakai
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Re: Holding triggers while closing Double, is it ok? [Re: 4seventy]
      #96220 - 08/02/08 12:58 AM

Of course, the DR must have a non-automatic safety to be able to close it while the triggers are held back!

My Jeffery .400 has Southgate ejectors and I have many times closed it with the triggers pulled. I closes quite happily, letting down both the tumblers and the ejectors smoothly without any 'clicks' or 'snaps'. The only difference is that when it is next opened it cocks the tumblers, and then it cocks the ejectors on closing.
No problem that I can see.

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Marrakai
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4seventy
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Re: Holding triggers while closing Double, is it ok? [Re: Marrakai]
      #96259 - 08/02/08 09:25 AM

There are different versions of the Southgate system so I guess it will work with some and not with others.
The ejectors on my .470 are similar to the Holland version.
It definately doesn't let the tumblers down smoothly when closing the gun with triggers held back, so I don't want to use that method on that gun.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Holding triggers while closing Double, is it ok? [Re: 4seventy]
      #96262 - 08/02/08 09:33 AM

I have had the same general experience as 4seventy, so I generally avoid lowering the tumblers on an ejector DR by pulling the triggers while closing the action.

I use a de-cocking bar of my own making. It works just fine, and there is no problem re-assembling the rifle after the tumblers have been discharged on the de-cocking bar.

My de-cocking bar is a piece of 1/2" diameter brass bar set in the base of a shed deer antler. Here are a couple of photos:






You hold the end of the brass rod firmly against the standing breech, over the firing pin hole, then pull the trigger. The brass absourbs all the shock of the falling tumbler, preventing any damage to the firing pin. You can see some marks on the end of the brass where it has been dented by firing pin blows.

Curl

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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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JabaliHunter
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Re: Holding triggers while closing Double, is it ok? [Re: CptCurl]
      #96309 - 08/02/08 09:02 PM

Well that is slightly more elaborate than a phone directory!

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Anonymous
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Re: Holding triggers while closing Double, is it ok? [Re: RLI]
      #96338 - 09/02/08 03:59 AM

I wouldn't get used to doing it that way. A horn striker, or something like Curl mentioned is the way to go.

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RLI
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Re: Holding triggers while closing Double, is it ok? [Re: ]
      #96371 - 09/02/08 11:24 AM

Thanks for the info, I won't hold triggers anymore i will get a horn striker block instead to be safe, Thanks

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"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne

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4seventy
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Re: Holding triggers while closing Double, is it ok? [Re: Marrakai]
      #96391 - 09/02/08 05:04 PM

Quote:

My Jeffery .400 has Southgate ejectors and I have many times closed it with the triggers pulled. It closes quite happily, letting down both the tumblers and the ejectors smoothly without any 'clicks' or 'snaps'. The only difference is that when it is next opened it cocks the tumblers, and then it cocks the ejectors on closing.
No problem that I can see.




Tony,

I'm not sure how the ejectors can be "let down" as the action is being closed?
When the action is closed the ejectors MUST be snug back in their recesses in the chamber walls, meaning that the ejector springs are fully compressed and the ejector tumblers are fully cocked.
If the fore-end is on the gun and the action is closed, I can't see how the ejector springs and ejector tumblers could ever be in a "let down" or uncocked position.
Am I missing something here?

Edited by 4seventy (09/02/08 05:49 PM)

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Marrakai
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Re: Holding triggers while closing Double, is it ok? [Re: 4seventy]
      #96394 - 09/02/08 07:11 PM

Quote:

I'm not sure how the ejectors can be "let down" as the action is being closed?



Dunno offhand how it works, Alan. But that's what happens. I'll see if I can figure out the mechanics of it, and post more details.

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Holding triggers while closing Double, is it ok? [Re: Marrakai]
      #96409 - 10/02/08 01:39 AM

I've always been skeptical of horn striker blocks. Never have used one, but I can't see how the horn block would have the mass or the resiliency to adequately soften the firing pin blow.

Again, I could be wrong and have no experience with horn used for the purpose. I do know that some of the old Brit doubles came with a horn striker block, so somebody must have thought horn was adequate.

I am fully confident in my brass de-cocker.

By the way, when the end of my de-cocker gets pretty messed up from multiple firing pin strikes, I just dress it back flat with a mill file.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Anonymous
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Re: Holding triggers while closing Double, is it ok? [Re: CptCurl]
      #96410 - 10/02/08 02:57 AM

Purdeys have been using horn strikers for 190 years, that's good enough for me.

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9.3x57
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Re: Holding triggers while closing Double, is it ok? [Re: CptCurl]
      #96417 - 10/02/08 04:30 AM

Quote:

I do know that some of the old Brit doubles came with a horn striker block, so somebody must have thought horn was adequate.



Horn was the "plastic" of its day. Many gun and indeed household items {combs, buttplates, gripcaps, mirror handles, trigger guards, knife scales, eyeglass frames, etc} were made of horn before the advent of better serving synthetics.

Just curious, but is it not possible that such a device might still be made of horn due to its "traditional" nature more so than its utility? Put another way, is there no modern synthetic that exceeds the properties of horn for this purpose?

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Sarg
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Re: Holding triggers while closing Double, is it ok? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #96424 - 10/02/08 07:14 AM

9.3x57 ; you are indeed a very astute chap , Thank you for your in put !

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DarylS
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Re: Holding triggers while closing Double, is it ok? [Re: Sarg]
      #96428 - 10/02/08 08:10 AM

UHMW or HDPE will work just fine. Too, these can be inserted into the primer recess of ctg. cases, but - a better method is to make a 'fake' ctg. out of them for your own snap-cap. The material is the perfect modern horn.
: There are many grades of this stuff - the harder ones ar th ones I'm referring to. Cutting boards usually are the softer varieties. Here, in Canada, UHMW is used for cutting boards in butcher shops. It's quite hard and resilient, much more so than the store-bought boards, which are too soft & used in comercial snap caps. It holds screws well, and has many uses.
: The coloured UHMW is all re-claimed pieces, trimmings put back into the 'pot' and therefore a die is added to identify it. Although it is all brand new 'product' it is not allowed for comercial butchershop cutting boards.
: It turns very nicely on a lathe at high speed, slow feed, which is how these 'snap caps' are made.
; UHMW means "ultra high molecular weight"while HDPE in the States means "high density polyethyline." There are different grades of HDPE I assume. Large plastics shops who pecialize in this stuff usualy have a 'piece bin' that they sell chunks from for the price of some Friday-night beer money.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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unspellable
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Re: reassembly [Re: DarylS]
      #96693 - 14/02/08 05:43 AM

I don't know of any rifles off hand, but there are definitly some guns out there that cannot be reassembled when uncocked. In particular I know of one that can be uncocked by holding the triggers back while closing and then disassembled. But you won't get it back together again without the aid of the appropriate tools.

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nopride2
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Re: reassembly [Re: unspellable]
      #96966 - 18/02/08 04:34 AM

I've made snap caps out of aluminum with a nylon primer insert. They work quite well. If I were to make them entirely out of plastic, I would use acetal (Delrin).

Dave

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