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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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MacNaughton360
.275 member


Reged: 10/12/07
Posts: 99
Loc: Indiana, USA
Brown & Rodda Rifle
      #95931 - 04/02/08 10:18 AM

Greetings, all,
What sort of rifle is this? I will email Mehul the photos to post for me when he gets the time.
It weighs 11-1/2 pounds.
The fully rifled bore is 0.984” from land-to-land, the 13 grooves are 0.095” wide and are about 0.030” deep.
The muzzle is 1.340” across the flats, and the breech is 1.320”.
The half stocked patent breeched octagonal Damascus barrel is 29-1/2” long.
One fixed sight leaf and four unmarked folding leaves with very sharp corners on them.
The dovetailed front sight is a disc 0.125” diameter, and appears to be fire blued.
The top barrel flat reads “BROWN & RODDA TITCHBORNE ST LONDON” and there are no proof marks visible anywhere on the barrel.
The front action lock is tastefully engraved and reads “BROWN & RODDA” and the hammer top looks sort of like a fish.
All the hardware appears to be steel, showing traces of fire bluing.
The stock is semi-fancy walnut with a red varnished finish.
Around almost all of the hardware are dark stains and no varnish, I suspect from gun oils getting under the finish via the inletting pockets.
The trigger guard is huge, perhaps for a gloved finger.
One-inch sling swivels are present on the stock and ramrod pipe on the barrel rib.
The ramrod is dark red and the bell end is missing from it.
It looks almost like a walking stick for a short man.
What market was this gun made for?
The barrel walls seem thin for any sort of heavy charges at about 0.150” or so on a side…
What did this gun fire, round balls, or conicals? Any idea as to the charge?
I’ve been contemplating making an 0.875” diameter round ball mold for it if it’d be safe to shoot it with them.
I suspect denim or soft deerskin would work for patch material.
Muzzleloaders with bores over .45” are legal for whitetails here in Indiana, heh-heh-heh…
Thanks for any assistance or comments anybody can enlighten me with.
MacNaughton360

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szihn
.400 member


Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2121
Loc: United States
Re: Brown & Rodda Rifle [Re: MacNaughton360]
      #95932 - 04/02/08 11:21 AM

You have a muzzleloading English "4 bore rifle". Now it may be closer to a 5 bore, but they were often called "4 bores" in the such sizes as you have.
A "true 4 bore ball" is 1.052. Some guns were measured at the grooves and some at the lands.
So in the terminology of the time, a "4 bore' just means it's not supposed to be a 5 bore or a 3 bore.
A 3 bore ball is 1.157"
A 4 is 1.052
A 5 is .995

As you can see, there's a lot of leeway here.

How deep are the grooves?
I would love to see pictures.

As far as it being for balls or bullets, I would have to know about the twist and the geometry of the rifling.
As a rule, very wide grooves and narrow lands were best for balls and wider lands were best for bullets. The twist is also a factor. In the days when your rifle was made, there were any number of makers experimenting with twist and rifling forms.

I would have to guess the intended market was India, but 4s were used in Africa too. As light as you rifle is, I would have to guess India, but it's just a guess. I believe more 4s went to Africa than India, but as I said, it's just a guess.
Most 4s I have seen were much heavier than 11.5 pounds. in fact, close to double that would be "average. I have seen several that were about 17 pounds and some were 20-22 pounds.
I have made some myself, and I think a 15 pound 4 bore is TOO LIGHT. However, the ones I made were rifles for balls and used charges of 350-400 grains. If your gun is rifles to use a 200 grain charge (or less) it might not bee too bad to fire.

Contact me directly if you want to chat about it.
I have a little bit of knowledge of these things. More than I really want.

(Of course, 1 shot from one of these guns is more than I really wanted.)

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Brown & Rodda Rifle [Re: szihn]
      #95942 - 04/02/08 01:27 PM

Yes - by all means, pictures are requisite.
; With .030"deep rifling, it would have a 1.044"groove depth. However as it is a muzzleloader, it would be more correctly called a 5 bore.
; The barrel walls at the breech at .138" are probably OK for light charges, say, up to 200gr. without trouble other than recoil.
; Measure the twist rate and you'll probably find a rapid twist. This does not mean it was meant for slug, as it would have been made MUCH heavier if it was. It just means it will shoot a light load fairly accurately.
; I'd have a round ball mould made that cast around .975"". That would allow using a descent denim patch of about .018" to .022" thick. Afterall, you want to hit what you aim at and the patch must seal to give good, accurate, clean shooting.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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MacNaughton360
.275 member


Reged: 10/12/07
Posts: 99
Loc: Indiana, USA
Re: Brown & Rodda Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #96020 - 05/02/08 11:56 AM

A little more info on the Brown & Rodda:
The rifling grooves are 0.095” wide and are about 0.030” deep, the lands are .125” wide.
Rate of twist is about one turn in 33 inches.
The stock is very nicely checkered.
The engraved patent breech plug has two gold bands in it.
There are NO proof marks visible anywhere on this barrel,odd for an English rifle.
Mehul was emailed the photos, I'm sure he will post them soon.
Input or opinions are more than welcome.
MacNaughton360

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MacNaughton360
.275 member


Reged: 10/12/07
Posts: 99
Loc: Indiana, USA
Re: Brown & Rodda Rifle [Re: MacNaughton360]
      #96310 - 08/02/08 09:23 PM

If I did this right, here are photos of the Brown & Rodda.
Thanks to szihn for the photo posting info. (That is, if this worked! )
MacNaughton360

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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5284
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Brown & Rodda Rifle [Re: MacNaughton360]
      #96315 - 08/02/08 10:51 PM

Wow, that's a real beauty. Let us know how it shoots.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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degoins
.333 member


Reged: 28/02/06
Posts: 435
Loc: SC, USA
Re: Brown & Rodda Rifle [Re: MacNaughton360]
      #96316 - 08/02/08 10:52 PM

Wow, what a treasure!!! More photos please.....

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szihn
.400 member


Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2121
Loc: United States
Re: Brown & Rodda Rifle [Re: degoins]
      #96360 - 09/02/08 09:42 AM


looks like I talked you through it the right way.


Listen guys.......I just got lucky. I told MacNaughton how I post photos, but it's not like I know what I am doing with a computer.
I bet I told him EVERYTHING I know about the subject, but I got it right that time.

Sure is a pretty gun.

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Brown & Rodda Rifle [Re: szihn]
      #96378 - 09/02/08 12:36 PM

Marvellous!

That style of rifling would have to be designed to pack-away the BP fouling, rather than fully engrave the projectile (patched or not!). Such was the case with early muzzle-loaders, but I've never seen one quite as 'steep and deep' as that before!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3555
Loc: Colorado
Re: Brown & Rodda Rifle [Re: Marrakai]
      #96388 - 09/02/08 04:10 PM

What did you do, drop a MagLite down the barrel?
That rifling is remarkable. A fantastic muzzle loader you have! Since the DGJ is featuring more front loaders as of late, I could see interest in such guns on the increase - at least I know I am more intrigued with them.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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MacNaughton360
.275 member


Reged: 10/12/07
Posts: 99
Loc: Indiana, USA
Re: Brown & Rodda Rifle [Re: Huvius]
      #96390 - 09/02/08 04:43 PM

The light was a little flexible necked LED light my wife had given me.
An A-A sized Maglite wouldn't quite fit. Almost...
Made for a pretty neat picture, I thought.
MacNaughton360

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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Brown & Rodda Rifle [Re: MacNaughton360]
      #96420 - 10/02/08 06:49 AM

John,

My apologies for not posting the pics - I got caught up in more work than I could handle. But it has worked out fine thanks to Steve's guiding you through the picture posting process.

Beautiful rifle and I know you have more pictures to post.

Good hunting, my friend!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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