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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns
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englishupland
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Reged: 21/12/07
Posts: 37
Loc: MI
11mm what caliber cape gun??
      #94402 - 16/01/08 04:32 PM

I have found a nice 16ga by 11mm cape gun for sale...Does anyone know what caliber US this would be or what kind of catridge it may use....Pre-war guild gun...But a nice one....Is this similar to 375 H&H??

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m4220
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Reged: 04/02/07
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Loc: wa
Re: 11mm what caliber cape gun?? [Re: englishupland]
      #94405 - 16/01/08 05:03 PM

Probally .43 Mauser if it is a german, who was the maker & pass along any details.

m4220

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fuhrmann
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Re: 11mm what caliber cape gun?? [Re: m4220]
      #94625 - 18/01/08 05:59 PM

Besides the .43 Mauser (11.15x60R) there are a couple of other possible cartridges.
Most were for black powder, far below pressure, velocity and energy of a .375 H&H.

Fuhrmann

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DarylS
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Re: 11mm what caliber cape gun?? [Re: fuhrmann]
      #94647 - 19/01/08 04:34 AM

Check Ctg's of the World - there are a number of possibilities in there and that's not all of them.
; J.J. Jennings book on Wildcat Conversions is also a good place to look, but that's putting the cart ahead of the horse.
: You need some Cerosafe (Brownells) to do a chamber cast to see exactly what you have. Make sure you follow the directions with it closely. It's dirt simple to do this and you end up with the proper dimensions to compare with the various books.
: If this is a gun for sale and you can't get the chamber cast done first, make sure you want it, then do the appropriate checking after.
: If it is indeed a .43 Masuer, brass and moulds are easy to get in the States. It is not for jacketed bullets. That ctg. puts out a 370gr. cast bullet out at about 1,360fps using black powder or equivalent loads of smokeless powder. You probably cannot buy ammo in any store for it.
; The bore must be slugged to see what the groove diameter is and bullets cast or sized to the appropriate size, .001" to .003" larger than the groove diameter. ome .43 Mausers will not allow using a larger bullet than .446" due to neck restrictions. This is unfortunate and then calls for using paper patched pure or almost pure lead bullets to shoot the best.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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englishupland
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Reged: 21/12/07
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Re: 11mm what caliber cape gun?? [Re: DarylS]
      #94651 - 19/01/08 05:13 AM

Thanks for the great info...


The gun is a guild gun prob. pre-war I imagine...It is gorgeous sidelock w/ 2 sets of barrles and nice engraving ect...One barrel is 16 x2 the other is 16 x what they say is 11mm??

I have talked to them and they have said they could chamber cast it for me...If it turned out to be a decent readily avail catridge it may be worth my while...But if it is very rare or I have to re-load myself, or is not a very powerful catridge I would pass....I don't need the hassles at this time..I assumed it was a 8x57 or 9x72....I was hoping for something more powerful...With chamber casting think they will be able to narrrow it down or should I be careful they may tell me something I want to hear as to sell it??

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JabaliHunter
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Re: 11mm what caliber cape gun?? [Re: englishupland]
      #94652 - 19/01/08 05:35 AM

Quote:

With chamber casting think they will be able to narrrow it down or should I be careful they may tell me something I want to hear as to sell it??


They's have to be pretty disreputable to do that, but if you have the casting you can check what they are telling you. Presumably if it has nitro proof marks, that might save some effort if you didn't want anything black powder...

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englishupland
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Reged: 21/12/07
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Re: 11mm what caliber cape gun?? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #94661 - 19/01/08 07:41 AM

They probably would not do that I guess..

Is it usual to have blackpowder in a non-external hammer gun??

This gun looks like an english sidelock

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fuhrmann
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Re: 11mm what caliber cape gun?? [Re: englishupland]
      #94739 - 20/01/08 03:35 AM

Quote:

Is it usual to have blackpowder in a non-external hammer gun??

This gun looks like an english sidelock



Maybe not usual, but entirely possible.
Can you get some pictures of proof marks?

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DarylS
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Re: 11mm what caliber cape gun?? [Re: fuhrmann]
      #94752 - 20/01/08 05:35 AM

There were many Black powder hammerless guns made.
: There even was a totally enclosed ie: hammerless and cockless, flint-lock double made prior to 1800.
: I wonder if we're missing something here. One barel is marked for the 16 bore 2" shell, while the author of this thread says the other is marked 16 x 11mm. Would mean it is the 16 bore 2" brass shell necked to 11mm? It certainly would be an odd duck and most certainly a black powder round - perhaps one of a kind. The case base dimension would be in the .680" to .690" range.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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fuhrmann
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Reged: 04/01/05
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Re: 11mm what caliber cape gun?? [Re: DarylS]
      #94803 - 20/01/08 10:18 PM

Quote:

I wonder if we're missing something here. One barel is marked for the 16 bore 2" shell, while the author of this thread says the other is marked 16 x 11mm. Would mean it is the 16 bore 2" brass shell necked to 11mm? It certainly would be an odd duck and most certainly a black powder round - perhaps one of a kind. The case base dimension would be in the .680" to .690" range.



I think the author only wanted to say that one barrel pair has two 16 gauge tubes.
The other barrel pair (cape gun) has a 16 gauge shotgun and a 11 mm rifle barrel.
Such combos are quite usual.

Fuhrmann

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DarylS
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Re: 11mm what caliber cape gun?? [Re: fuhrmann]
      #94833 - 21/01/08 07:13 AM

OK - misunderstanding. Probably the Mauser round then.
; The early. 11 mm. bolt guns (71 and 71/76) had .457" groove diameters and .436" bores, yet the chamber would only allow .446" paper patched bullets due to tight necks. The later 11mm. bolt guns (71/84) had .446" groove diameters which also allowed grooved lubricated bullets. It would be good to cast the chamber as well as slugging the bore to decide what bullet was intended.
; If the neck diameter is too small, a chucking reamer or a more expansive necking reamer can be purchased from Pacific Tool and Gauge. This will not alter the value - may not be needed - but could be? Chamber casts are very important with any old gun such as this.
; With cerrosafe, the cast must be removed from the chamber almost immediately after casting. If left to sit too long, it will expand and be impossible to remove without melting it out. Fortunately, 170F will melt the stuff (hot water not even boiling). The idea of immediate removal is due to the stuff shrinking a couple thou to allow removal, then it expands to the exact chamber or bore dimensions for accurate measurements.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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