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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Lee Speed Forum & Archive
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Charles
.275 member


Reged: 13/12/07
Posts: 55
Loc: Texas
Pressure and the Lee Enfield
      #92978 - 30/12/07 02:39 PM

I am getting things together to do a Lee Speed type gun on the Australian #1. I am aware the #4 is stronger but I am wondering about the #1 as I prefer the esthetics of the #1. Darryl stated that the # 4 was 55,000 PSI capable and would work fine with the 45-90. I have been checking pressure number on some cartridges and came up with a load behind a 400 grain bullet that gives 1926 feet per second at 28,000 PSI( This is in a 45-70). This develops 3295 pounds of muzzle energy. Assuming these facts are correct, the # 1 should handle this with no problems. The reason I was interested in the 45-90(if the case will fit) is because I wondered if the larger case would develop less pressure. I went back to Taylor and found that the 450 3 1/4 developed 17 tons of pressure and the 450 3 1/2 developed 13 tons. If these numbers are correct, then the longer case developes less pressure. If the 45-90 will fit, will the longer case reduce pressure in the # 1 ??. I am not trying to make a 458 out of this (and no, I would not take a 45-70 after anything in Africa at any time and any place). Also, I was wondering if the 35 Winchester would fit this action as the cartridge is shorter than the 405. Anyone have any experience with the 375 JDJ which is based on the 444 Marlin ??

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5521
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Re: Pressure and the Lee Enfield [Re: Charles]
      #92980 - 30/12/07 03:17 PM

Woulda, shoulda, coulda, but I never did.

I had a collection of Enfields acquired over many years, and always wanted to have one rechambered to the .375 JDJ cartridge. I sold the whole collection before I ever did it. Funny you bring that one up. I think it looks ideal for the Lee action. Similar to Waters .375 Express. Looks like a No.4 barrel could be rebored and rechambered, but with your No.1 a new tube could be fitted, and I think the original mag would work, also, maybe with the lips bent here or there.

Daryl, what do you think?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Otto
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Reged: 15/09/05
Posts: 111
Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: Pressure and the Lee Enfield [Re: 9.3x57]
      #93249 - 03/01/08 12:24 AM

I've made 35 Win rifles on the #1 SMLE with complete success. Magazine is the problem with any SMLE conversion. It's quite tapered back to front to accomodate the 303 rim at the base and pointy 303 bullet at the front. The 35 Win has to have bullets seated deeper than for a M95 Win, but still work well. As bullet diameter increases, problems compound. Don't know if .375 will work, but 405 does not without major changes. I'm convinced that straight walled cartridges require a single stack mod to the magazine for reliability. Would be interested in details about such mods from anyone who's done it.
Otto

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Pressure and the Lee Enfield [Re: Otto]
      #93320 - 03/01/08 01:58 PM

Quote:

...always wanted to have one rechambered to the .375 JDJ cartridge


I have done exactly this with a Lithgow No.1 Mk.III*. Many years ago, a gunsmith friend of mine moved into town from his rural block, and had to 'rationalise' his stock. He had a .375 barrel blank left over from the buffalo days, which would now never be used on account of the influx of cheap BRNO .375 rifles at that time. We built a .375 JDJ facsimile because the JDJ reamers are proprietry (patented or somethin', so the story goes), and only JD Jones can order them. We cut my chamber using a .308 reamer with a .375 throater attached, and simply pushed it in an extra 1/4-inch or so. The rim recess was then cut on the lathe.

The sizing die was made by softening a Lee RGB .308 die and shoving a 25/64 drill-bit (from memory) through it, then polishing. Didn't bother to re-harden. Works a treat.

This rifle was mentioned in an earlier thread on NE.com, I'll see if I can find it. Meanwhile, some pix (apologies for the blonde stock, the Slee XXX 'Classic' I had put aside was needed elsewhere, and I never got round to blueing the barrel either!):







--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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88MauSporter
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Reged: 06/06/07
Posts: 530
Loc: Alaska / Texas
Re: Pressure and the Lee Enfield [Re: Marrakai]
      #93323 - 03/01/08 02:53 PM

A .375 JDJ type on a No.1 MKIII was always a "want to do" of mine. Again, the JDJ is proprietory and the guys who have the reamers don't have any interest in the idea. I have a Martini-Enfield on the way home from having the rotten .303 bore bored out to .375 and the original .303 Brit chamber neck reamed and throuted so I can just neck up the .303 cases to .375. It doesn't have the capacity of a JDJ, but should be close to the .375 rimmed express. I believe that with the 21 inch barrel, I can still push a 250 grainer at about 1800 to 2000 fps. This will be my own ".375 Nitro Express". I will let you know how it works. It is not the fast and sleek LE anction, but, then again, I don't need to be concerned about feed issues with a single shot.
I have seen on this NE Site, a gunsmiths examples of No.1 MKIIIs with the charger bridge removed and the stocks done in the patern of some old fine English guns that would make anyone drool. I would love to find this again to have one done in .303 or any workable caliber. I have seen a .35 Win. at a local show a few years ago. I past it up because I didn't know how it would feed and function.

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"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Pressure and the Lee Enfield [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #93324 - 03/01/08 03:11 PM

88MS: Half-way down the "Lee Speed Sporter" thread in this forum is a post by CarpetSahib showing the rifle to which you refer:



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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5521
Loc: United States
Re: Pressure and the Lee Enfield [Re: Marrakai]
      #93329 - 03/01/08 04:45 PM

As usual, Marrakai rides in on the Big Horse!!

Thanks for that bit. Great "Gun Nut Story", too.

And your pix proves it works, too!!

Ken Waters made up a .375 Express, and I think RCBS has the specs for dies and maybe Clymer has the reamer? Really, that is one wildcat that would seem to be worth the effort.

How does the .375 feed and function?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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88MauSporter
.375 member


Reged: 06/06/07
Posts: 530
Loc: Alaska / Texas
Re: Pressure and the Lee Enfield [Re: 9.3x57]
      #93392 - 04/01/08 12:13 PM

Thanks, Marrakai.
That is just what I was referring to. Beauty.
On this same catagory titled Lee Speed - Best Quality is an Army-Navy brand in .303 that is also a prize. I may work on my .303 candidate and see what happens.
I do not know how the charger bridge is supposed to be removed though.
Any suggestions?

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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Carpetsahib
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Reged: 29/04/07
Posts: 435
Loc: Western NC
Re: Pressure and the Lee Enfield [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #93399 - 04/01/08 12:45 PM

Quote:

Thanks, Marrakai.
That is just what I was referring to. Beauty.
On this same catagory titled Lee Speed - Best Quality is an Army-Navy brand in .303 that is also a prize. I may work on my .303 candidate and see what happens.
I do not know how the charger bridge is supposed to be removed though.
Any suggestions?

Thanks for the kind words. I use a hacksaw and file to remove the charger bridge. On the No.1, one must contend with a set of holes and a slot that must be filled. This can be done by welding or soldering on a patch. If done with care, it looks fine.

Something that I've mentioned before is the tendency for the restocked rifles to exhibit a "wandering zero", something I attribute to the fore end floating around with out a proper anchor. What I will probably do in the future is use a barrel band or cross pin and physically tie the front of the fore end to the barrel. Comments?

Carpetsahib

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5521
Loc: United States
Re: Pressure and the Lee Enfield [Re: Carpetsahib]
      #93402 - 04/01/08 01:16 PM

Quote:

Something that I've mentioned before is the tendency for the restocked rifles to exhibit a "wandering zero", something I attribute to the fore end floating around with out a proper anchor. What I will probably do in the future is use a barrel band or cross pin and physically tie the front of the fore end to the barrel. Comments?

Carpetsahib



I have had excellent results epoxy bedding the barrel and front guard screw area, ie a full lenth bedding of the barreled action {using release agent, of course}.

Make sure the recoil abutments on the forestock are firmly contacting the lugs on the action, thus forcing the forestock back toward the butt socket.

The rifles I have bedded in this manner shoot phenomenally well, but must be shot with the supporting hand gripping the forestock. A forestock rested on sandbags in bench shooting will give a different POI than will be the result of offhand shooting.

Forget all the gas blown about how a twopiece stocked rifle won't shoot unless the forestock is freefloated. Having said that IF YOU WANT, you can epoxy bed, then freefloat a portion from about an inch forward of the front guard screw to the forestock tip, or...full length bed and then add shims to the forestock tip until upward pressure eliminates wandring.

SOUNDS like it is complicated, but it is not. Full length bed, then shoot, if all's well leave it. If not, add shims. Shoot. If groups still aren't what you think they should be, then free float the forestock. If this method gets worse as you proceed, add more epoxy to the barrel channel, thus returning the rifle to full-length bedded status and be happy!

There, simple as mud.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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88MauSporter
.375 member


Reged: 06/06/07
Posts: 530
Loc: Alaska / Texas
Re: Pressure and the Lee Enfield [Re: 9.3x57]
      #93410 - 04/01/08 01:48 PM

Carpetsahib:
That's what I needed. Sounds like a lot of work, but if that is what it takes to remove the charger, so be it. I thought maybe just heating some or something like that. Oh, well. After removing the bridge, the No.1 action becomes so sleek and classic. As for the forearm, I had the same issue with my son's single shot. It was consistant for maybe two shots. I apoxy bedded the full length and the groups shrank from about 6 inch at 100 meters to about 1-2 inches at the same range. So far, he has taken neck shots on deer at over 200 yards and then on a nice wild blackbuck at about 75 meters. (He is 11).
As much as I love my Mauser rifles, I have a very nostalgic spot for the LE action rifles.

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"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Pressure and the Lee Enfield [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #93461 - 05/01/08 12:50 AM

9ThreeXFifty7 asked:
Quote:

How does the .375 feed and function?


From the unaltered SMLE magazine, it will feed 5 cartridges flawlessly provided they are spitzer bullets. RNs with exposed lead tend to catch on the rim-recess at the chamber-mouth every now and then. If I load 6 or 7 in the mag, the stack gets a bit untidy and may mis-feed the first cartridge occasionally. I'm sure it could be modified to feed more than 5, but I haven't felt the need to do this as yet.

I shoot mainly the Hornady 270gr Spire-Point, but the rifle also likes the 250gr Sierra Game-King. Many years ago, I acquired a box of Speer 285gr Grand-Slams 'on the cheap' and shot most of them at buffalo, but eventually realised that premium bullets were not required at these velocities.

Regarding the wandering zero, I have never actually identified this with any of my Lee Speeds or SMLE sporters, but I don't have unrealistic expectations regarding accuracy. Most are around 2 to 2 1/2 MOA with hand-loads and open sights, but the A&N sporters with the full-length rib have quite stiff barrels and are closer to 1 MOA.

The .375 JDJ facsimile shoots 1 MOA consistently from the bench with the meaty micro-groove barrel and tube-style ghost-ring sight on the clip-loading bridge.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Pressure and the Lee Enfield [Re: Marrakai]
      #93477 - 05/01/08 04:31 AM

I've been corresponding with Charles on this topic - I didn't see the thread.
; Either #3 or #4 will easily handle .45/70 or .45/90 at lever-gun ballistics - ie: 400gr. at 2,100fps. If one wants to soup things up a bit, the #4 will handle the same pressure as factory loaded .458 mag, easily. With a nominal leade of 3/10", this would result in ballistics equating the .458 mag. due to bullets being seated out or allowed to jump.
: I would never consider re-boring a slender military barrel for a .375 or .458 cal. rifle when much better barrels are easily aquired from PacNor, etc. It may be OK in .375, but still wouldn't do it.
: Any of the smaller wildcat .375's wold work beautifully. magazine work may have to be done, of course. Single stack on larger rimmed cases, but my #4 feeds my .312 Express (Waters) just fine(.350 Rem. brass). I only put in 3.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Rolland
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Reged: 31/12/06
Posts: 281
Loc: Camp Verde, AZ
Re: Pressure and the Lee Enfield [Re: Charles]
      #93514 - 05/01/08 03:18 PM

This a 45-70 I built last year on a No1 MK3, I used a stock from Great American Gunstocks in California. The only problem is working out the bugs in the magazine.


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88MauSporter
.375 member


Reged: 06/06/07
Posts: 530
Loc: Alaska / Texas
Re: Pressure and the Lee Enfield [Re: Rolland]
      #93594 - 06/01/08 09:42 AM

Rolland
Beautiful work on the .#1 and stock. Loge the lines of the stock and finish. Was this much reworked by you or is the basic shape as these stocks come?
Is this a single stack magazine? How did you remove the charger bridge?
Thanks,

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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88MauSporter
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Reged: 06/06/07
Posts: 530
Loc: Alaska / Texas
Re: Pressure and the Lee Enfield [Re: Rolland]
      #93599 - 06/01/08 09:58 AM

My .375 2 1/4 Express, "rebored" from .303 brit Martini arrived back today. I see the bore looks nice, but the rifling seems a bit shallow to me. I am used to seeing my heavy lands in my old originals. This has a 6 groove one twist in about 12.5 inches. Should be good for heavier bullets. I wanted to use mostly cast bullets. I hope this shallow groves won't be a problem. The chamber redo looks nice and evenly tapered and polished. There will be little to no neck on the cases. I will start preparing my cases and see what I can come up with. Once I fire form a few I will know.
I went for a rebore to keep the same style and configuration of the Martini Henry barrel. Still lots of thickness on this 22 inch barrel all the way to the muzzle. Can't wait to work up some loads. I don't know if this would be an option for the SMLE due to the straight case. I see by these posts that the taper dosn't seem to be a major issue.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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Rolland
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Reged: 31/12/06
Posts: 281
Loc: Camp Verde, AZ
Re: Pressure and the Lee Enfield [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #93633 - 06/01/08 02:42 PM

88
That is the basic shape the stock comes in there is a lot of wood on the forearm so you can work it pretty much anyway you want. The magazine is a trial and error sort of thing you just have to work with it. The 308 mag is a bit easier to work with than the .303. I drilled out the rivets on the charging clip guide and welded up the receiver on the topside just left the bottom two holes open since they do not show.
Hope that helps.

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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Pressure and the Lee Enfield [Re: Rolland]
      #93642 - 06/01/08 05:18 PM

Rolland,

Very nice work! Did you do the barrel work yourself? It looks really nice with the open sights on it.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Pressure and the Lee Enfield [Re: Marrakai]
      #93643 - 06/01/08 05:27 PM

Marrakai,

Very nice rifle and some lovely hunting pictures as well. The only downside with the rifle, as I can see, is the possible fights with the Mrs on who gets to hunt with it when you hunt together.

Please do post more pictures of the rifle - especially a full length picture if possible.

Thanks in advance and good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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John303
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Reged: 16/11/06
Posts: 243
Loc: Canada
Re: Pressure and the Lee Enfield [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #94783 - 20/01/08 12:49 PM

Interesting topic to be sure, my first "larger calibre rifle" in my very younger days was a LE .303 and I still have a fondness for the calibre and rifle. Many years ago I purchased a ONE piece stock for a LE from the late Ellwood Epps when he had a store in Clinton Ontario. A recoil lug must be welded to the barrel and the butt stock attachment modified ( read removed ) and the floor plate modified to recieve an action bolt also the action to receive the same bolt ( like on a Mauser 98 eg. ). Makes a very light gun and a smooth looking modification to the LE. Must finish this project to be sure and Oh yes learn to post pics. and so on. --- John303.

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