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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder

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pjb
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Twist Rates for Round Balls
      #91763 - 17/12/07 04:33 AM

Has anyone had success with relatively fast twist rates (1:48) and round balls? If so, is one caliber likely to give better results than another? Can an 8 bore perform with PRB and 1:48 as well as a .72, .62, .50? Thanks PJB

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szihn
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Re: Twist Rates for Round Balls [Re: pjb]
      #91795 - 17/12/07 09:45 AM

Hi Pat,
the actual twist of a barrel is the LEAST important thing to consider in terms of accuracy alone. I know that fly's in the face of the modern gun-scribes, but as a barrel maker, I have experimented with this, and it's true.

Quality and rifling geometry are FAR more important. I once made some barrels with 3 to one rifling (grooves 3X wider then lands) and ran the twist at 1-18" and shot them for accuracy with round balls. The all shot into one ragged hole at 50 yds. With the fast twist, I needed to wipe the fouling out every shot, but don't let someone convince you that fast can't shoot a ball well. It sure can

with that said, I must tell the rest of the story.
I also made barrels with 1-48, 1-56 and 1-76 twist, all made with 3 to 1 ruifling, and all shot into very small groups at 50 yds.

The ones twisted at 1-48" and longer didn't foul as much and could be re-loaded easily without wiping.

So when buying a barre3l for a round ball gun, look to rifling geometry and over all quality. If the twist is 1-36" or slower, don't worry about it for 28 cal, 32 cal, and 36 cal. If it's 1-40" or slower, don't worry about it for 40 cal, 45 cal 50 cal 54 cal 58 cal and 62 cal, Over 62 cal you will find that 1-56 or slower is best, and over 70 cal go about 1-72 or less.
Faster twist will allow you to shoot smaller powder charged in any give caliber as a rule, but in calibers up to 50 it's really not much of a factor how much you can lessen the recoil.

I have made a number of 54 cal rifles for men that don't hunt, but want super accurate rifles for competition at 25, 50 and 100 yds and want guns that won't kick over long strings of fire. I use barrels for such rifles twisted at 1-40 and they shoot into one ragged hole. You load 80 gains for hunting, but for hunting you will not need to fire more than 2 shots before you can wipe the bore anyway.

If you are not making a rifle that’s to be used 99% of the time for paper punching, you will find that the barrel makers have worked the twist out about as well as it can be. The art of muzzleloading rifle barrel making is not exactly new, and the men that make them for a living are pretty knowledgeable in it.
Green Mountain, Rice, Colorain, Moodie, Rayl, .....all will make you a barrel that will fill you needs well. There are others too.
On an 8 bore, you just need to define the mission statement first. if you will hunt dangerous game with the rifle more than just “plink’ you should get it rifled about 1-96” to 1-104”
If you are going to shoot half charges most of the time, I’d have it made at 1-56 or so”

My 2 cents worth....................
Steve


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pjb
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Re: Twist Rates for Round Balls [Re: szihn]
      #91803 - 17/12/07 12:44 PM

Thanks Steve. Always nice to have a brain to pick. I'm starting to learn little by little. I think I know what I would do if I were having a rifle made from scratch. I was trying to find what would be acceptable if I were to find an existing rifle. It's clear to me (now) that there are several elements one can adjust to get satisfactory target and/or hunting performance. And, as you say, define what you want to begin with. Conicals Thanks again. Pat

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szihn
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Re: Twist Rates for Round Balls [Re: pjb]
      #91882 - 18/12/07 07:26 AM



Oh.....
For an 8 bore bullet rifle I would go faster than 1-48
I would recommend about a 1-26. You can still shoot balls, but you would have to clean it after every 2-3 shots. But you can shoot bullets of about any practical length in it. Up to about 1000 grains.
Make sure that the rifling is about .006 or .007 deep for bullets. If a "ball only rifle" I would go about .009- 012.
To fire balls in a "bullet barrel", you need to have a patch of about .012" and a ball of only about .005 under bore size. If you load with a lubed felt wad under the ball you can expect very good accuracy.


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Dphariss
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Re: Twist Rates for Round Balls [Re: pjb]
      #93739 - 07/01/08 02:22 PM

In a bore this big I would use something at least 72 and probably 80 to 100". 72 to 80 will work for bore much smaller than 4.
I would not use a 48 in calibers larger than 50 cal. Though it works very well in the 50 even with heavy charges.
I use the same powder charge in a rifle for everything. This way I become accustomed to its trajectory and know where it shoots and don't have to remember if i am shooting a "target load" or a hunting load.
Conical bullets were proven to be a poor choice in "bore" rifles back in the day so fast twists are really useless.

The British makers almost always used twists that were far too fast in RB rifles, why I have never been able to learn, British military tests circa 1790-1800 proved they were not needed.
Still they generally used twists of one turn in the length of the barrel or faster, falsely believing that larger balls needed faster twists. Thus they created rifles that were useless for their intended purpose since they would only shoot light powder charges and the trajectory and penetration was so poor that hunters like Selous gave up and used smoothbores or rifles with "belted" balls that would not strip.
Samuel Baker details the failings of conicals for dangerous game and James Forsythe details the problems with rifles having too fast a twist or using conicals of equal weight to a round ball. He found that a .69 caliber (about 14 bore) rifle worked very well with a twist of 8"6" and would shoot well enough for hunting with considerably less.
I do not know at what point the larger bores will begin to strip with loads making 1350-1500 fps. About what was needed for shooting heavy game. Smaller bores like the 20-16-14 can be used at velocities much higher 1650-1750, without excess recoil giving a nice flat trajectory to 120-130 yards. But the twist needs to be 72" or slower.
The modern use of conical in ML guns is largely the result of companies making conicals for people who cannot be bothered with the PRB and since they make it and sell it it MUST be better than a PRB. In reality for hunting it is not and in fact has some deficiencies.
Dan


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Twist Rates for Round Balls [Re: Dphariss]
      #96593 - 12/02/08 08:35 AM

Well addressed, Dan.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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pjb
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Re: Twist Rates for Round Balls [Re: Dphariss]
      #96635 - 13/02/08 04:08 AM

Dan,

I orignally asked the twist question because I had a line on an 8 bore underhammer with 32" 1:48 twist. Since that time, I purchased the rifle because I really like the simplicity of underhammers. With this rifle, I have shot round balls into 3 shot 1" groups at 50 yds with 150 FFG Swiss. I will try 175 next and then 200. Regardless of the twist, if they are accurate and velocity is not substantially diminished, what's the difference if the twist is fast? I have also shot 1350 grain conicals into 1.5" at 50 yds with 150 grains of FFG Swiss. If the 1350 conical and ball are both pure lead and the conical is 1.65 the weight of the ball, what's the disadvantage of a conical rather than a PRB? Having said that, I prefer PRB and will shoot them in this rifle almost exclusively - just because I like them. Does anyone know where I can buy .835 balls? I'm not into casting yet. Thanks, PJB


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Twist Rates for Round Balls [Re: pjb]
      #96643 - 13/02/08 06:39 AM

PJB - your loads are sub-standard for hunting dangerous game in the first place - for you, they may be just great. The 8 bores we are referring to was meant for 10 drams minimun - that's 273gr. powder. With these charges the fast twists tend to foul and accuracy usually just isn't there. that is why the slower twists Dan mentioned.
: For modern plinking ie: squib loads that everyone uses today, I expect the 48"twist would work just fine for you along with some sort of adjustable sigth so you can hit at various ranges. The point blank sigth gave just that, a shot to `100 or so yards without having to think about range or trajectory. It's a wonderful thing when that happens.
: The conicals weight and bearing surface reduce velocity and increase recoil. The reduced velocity reduces point blank range, making the gun less useful for hunting dangerous game.
: Have you chronographed this gun? Dangerous game loads are expected to produce in the 1,400fps to 1,500fps range. I doubt you'd like shooting those.
: In my 14 bore, it took 165gr. just to get 1,550 fps and that was only a 480gr. ball.
; A 12 bore usually needed over 180gr. to get 1,550fps with a 545gr. ball. The 8 bore would require around 273gr. to get 1,400fps. Now, try that load with your conical and the velocity will drop to about 1,250fps and there will still be no point blank range, whereas the round ball will have a point blank range of about 100 yards. Point blank is where the projectile is no more than 1-1/2"above or below the line of sight. The reason is that one can shoot a dangerous animal without first trying to figure the range and where to hold. They wanted to just point and shoot.
: Try zeroing your rifle at 100 yards then shoot at 50 to see where the bullet hits. If it is much than 1-1/2", then the rifle's point blank range is quite short. Forsyth's word was 'useless' for fast twist large bores. How do you hold 5 1/2" low on a charging tiger, elephant of buffalo?
: He had one 13 bore with 35" of twist that stripped badly with anything approaching a hunting load. 35" in a 13 bore is probably about the same s 48" in the 8 bore - both twist rates are designed for slugs, not round balls, but the guns usually lack the weigth for shooting them with appropriate loads. He also stated it had a 13" trajectory over 100 yards range, making it useless. He went on to describe all the doubles made in London which possessed the same fast rifling and that their owners in India forgot about the rifling and loaded them appropriately for the game desired and used them as the smoothbores their wild shooting resembled.
; However - that's for guns meant to be used in Afric or India against dangerous game. If your fast twist 8 shoots well for you and you are happy, that's the important thing for you and that's great.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (13/02/08 09:26 AM)


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pjb
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Re: Twist Rates for Round Balls [Re: DarylS]
      #96647 - 13/02/08 09:24 AM

Daryl,

Thanks. Makes perfect sense about the conicals - increased recoil, reduced velocity and the resulting trajectory issue. And you're right, I doubt I'd like shooting 273 grains under a 1350 grain conical. If I can get 1-1.5" accuracy at 50 yds with a 200 grain FFG round ball load, I'll chrono it. It may do fine for anything on this continent, but I may go ahead and get a 1:96 or slower barrel just cause I've got to have one. The sight is a non-adjustable full buckhorn and bead front. At first I didn't think I'd like it, but I use it as a peep and it is the best arrangement I have ever used - excellent view and fast. I have only shot at 50 so far, but I'll try 100 and find apoint blank range. It's just a whole lot of fun shooting these.

By the way, I finally got my Pedersoli Kodiak Double Express .72 (3rd one from Cabela's -sent two back) to shoot both barrels into 2-4 " at 50 yds (depending on how well I hold it). That's with 140 FFg Swiss 545 PRB.

Thanks again. PJB


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Twist Rates for Round Balls [Re: pjb]
      #96648 - 13/02/08 09:31 AM

Glad you got a 12 Pedersoli you're happy with. Too bad you had to sent 2 back. I wonder if they realize something's wrong since they seem to get a lot back for regualtion and lock problems too. I have a friend who sent his .58 double back to them and they actually found a set of barrels that would regualte with round balls and exchanged them. He thinks they re-regulated his barrels - They are brazed, aren't they? If so, they probably put them on a different rifle heading for Cabalas.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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pjb
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Re: Twist Rates for Round Balls [Re: DarylS]
      #96656 - 13/02/08 01:19 PM

I doubt he got the same set of barrels back re-regulated, but maybe. Looks like they are soldered together, maybe brazed. I would imagine they use a laser to line these things up. You only get about 1 out of 3 to shoot regulated, but for a double that costs $900-950, that's not too bad. I wouldn't doubt they reblue and put returns on another rifle knowing there is a substantial group of folks that just want to hang it on the wall. The rifling is very shallow and I continue to have problems loading after the 3rd shot (even with swabbing between shots). Some time ago you suggested that I use a ball smaller than .715 and a patch thicker than .010 and I'm going to try it. Maybe .690 ball and .020 patch. Thanks, PJB

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Twist Rates for Round Balls [Re: pjb]
      #96663 - 13/02/08 04:36 PM

Do try a thicker patch. If the gun is a true 12 bore, with a .729" bore (or .730"), then the ball I'd use would be no smaller than .715", and that one with a .022" denim patch. I use a michrometer for measuring the cloth's thickness. I buy the cloth at a yard-good store (sewing stuff store), and choose only that which is 100% cotton and generally only denim.
; With LehighValley lube, my patches are WET, not damp, not pressed out, not licked damp, but WET. for hunting, I use a wad of cloth, disk of card stock, or an oxyoke wad to separate the powder from the wet patch. You don't want any lubricant migration to spoil the powder charge or vary ballistics from being wet.
: The muzzles of your rifle need to be radiused and smoothed where the angled crown meets the rifling. I've yet to see a productnion rifle with enough radius on the crown. For best loading of snug combinations, it should be not less than 1/8"deep, and 3/16"is better. That is, from the top of the muzzle to the full diameter of the lands should be 3/16", and from there, the angle is smoothed out to just a bit deeper than the bottom of the grooves.
: You should be able to shoot all day without having to wipe the bore. If you can't, you are #1/.- not using enough lube or #2/. - you are not using a thick enough patch or #3/. your crown is too sharp and is not allowing you to use a tight enough patch, with sufficient lube to keep the bore from crudding up.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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pjb
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Re: Twist Rates for Round Balls [Re: DarylS]
      #96668 - 13/02/08 10:01 PM

My bore must be smaller than .729 because with a .715 ball and .010 patch, it becomes very difficult to load after two shots. I have switched to Lehigh Valley lube and like it - also wet with a dry wadded up patch between powder and wet patch. Can't find Lehigh anymore - is Shenendoah Valley lube the same stuff? The bottle and label looks the same. I think the guy copied everything from Lehigh.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Twist Rates for Round Balls [Re: pjb]
      #96682 - 14/02/08 02:56 AM

The Shenendoah lube is certainly worth a try. The fellow who developed LV is apparently not well and may not produce any more.
: Many people fairly new to muzzleloading seem to have difficulty with snug combinations. The reasonas are usualy mechanical. Too sharp a crown and too thin a patch and not enough lube.
: Since your bore dirties and is difficult to load, we look at your combination. The .010" patch is a dead givaway to the cause and root of the problem.
: I shoot a .400 ball in my .40 rifle. The ball is actually .002" larger than the bore's actual diameter. With that slightly oversize ball, I use a .019" thick denim patch. I can load the .022" denim patch tht I normally use with the .395" ball, but it's a bit tight and isn't needed for 5-shot, 1/2" accuracy off the bags at 50 yards. The rifle likes the .019" patch.
: Since you have difficulty loading, even with that thin patch you are using, this tells me the crown on the muzzle is too sharp to allow a thicker patch. Thin patches don't work - period. The crown needs to be radiused as I indicated before. Also, measure the borer, land to land. The ball will load easily with a .020" patch, if the ball is .005" smaller than the bore.
; The .010" patch is also too thin to hold enough lube to do the job it is supposed to do. LV has a 'secret' ingredient in it that coats the bore and makes any fouling from the previous shot easily pushed down on top of the next load's powder. The coating prevents the fouling from sticking to the bore. Now, we know your patch is not thick enough and won't hold enough lube. Also, patches must be WET, not just damp.
: Since you haven't re-crowned the muzzles, they are the main culprit to laoding a proper combination. There never was a production gun sold, that had a proper crown that would allow loading a snug combination. Over the last 35 years, I've looked at about all production guns and not one was crowned properly - custom guns, some, but still, not all.
; The proper crown allows the ball the swage slightly, and the patch to fold into proper creases to give a perfect fit every time. A poor crown rivets the ball, cuts the patch and won't allow a good thick patch to be used.
: I have heard of guys saying they can't load anything tighter than a .010" patch with a .495" ball in a .50, yet you can almost push that inside the bore with your thumb.
; I use a short starter, always have. The side of the starter's knob has a peg with a cup on the end. The peg sticks out about 3/8". I put the peg's cup on top of the ball and patch, then smack it with one blow on the other side, with my plam. The ball and patch goes into the bore 3/8" in perfect shape, no more than a ring on the surface from the brass peg. The long shaft, with it's cupped end is placed on the ball and with one smack, driven the length of the shaft - normally 5" to 6". From there, in two or three pushes, the ball and patch are shoved down to the powder with the same amount of compression of powder each time.
: Note that if you have to wipe the bore at any time during shooting, this means fouing is always building from the first shot, then the second etc and the bore NEVER maintains a consistant condition. If the bore never maintains a consistant condition, your accuracy will suffer. The patched ball must CLEAN the bore as you load the next shot. The saying goes "You clean der last, ven you loads der next." LV lube makes that so easy, I can't understand why anyone would have difficulty- other than that blood crown. Why, oh why, are people so resistant to improving their rifles. Pedersoli NEVER does this right - and other things as well. It doesn't matter if we're shooting .32's or anything up to the .77cal Bess. We shoot all day without having to wipe the bore - not once. That's up to 100 shots with never having to wipe and the 100th loads as easily as the very first one.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Dphariss
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Re: Twist Rates for Round Balls [Re: pjb]
      #97504 - 24/02/08 04:45 PM

Quote:

Dan,

I orignally asked the twist question because I had a line on an 8 bore underhammer with 32" 1:48 twist.




The British liked to use 1 turn in the barrel. This would give a 32" in your rifle or even faster considering the bore size. They believed the bigger calibers needed faster twists. All evidence to the contrary not withstanding. 48" is a neither this nor that twist, Not all that fast but not all that slow either.

When shooting heavy game they used a lot of powder and the use of too fast twists was the reason the belted ball was developed.
Samuel Baker nearly got killed when he tried a conical in his Elephant rifle (4 0r 6 bore would have too look it up). This was his "devil stopper" and "never failed to floor a charging elephant" but with a conical it lost its ability. This is very bad when hunting Elephant. Or any other dangerous game for that matter.

Bakers books are all downloadable from Google Books. I have not read them yet but downloaded them a couple of days ago.
I would tell you to find a copy of Forsythe's book but they are pretty pricey even the reprint done in the 1970s.
Dan


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pjb
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Re: Twist Rates for Round Balls [Re: Dphariss]
      #97549 - 25/02/08 02:12 AM

Dan,

I've got the picture, I believe. It doesn't take too many shots (with conicals) to realize that the load necessary to get the velocity required to acheive a relatively flat trajectory out to 100 yds gives you a whole lot of recoil. I've been shooting round balls off the bench with 200 grains FFG Swiss and they have been going into 1.5" at 50 and about 3" at 75 and 2" trajectory from 25 to 75 yds. Probably be better if I could see and hold harder. I'll work up to 220 or so. At least I am releived to find that the 1:48 will work. I really always preferred to shoot balls - just had to ask the question to get those with the knowledge to respond. Thanks. PJB


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starwars
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Re: Twist Rates for Round Balls [Re: Dphariss]
      #101364 - 03/04/08 12:36 PM

I also have 8 bore underhammer with 32" 1:48 twist, works quite well.

--------------------
Richard


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gatsby
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Re: Twist Rates for Round Balls [Re: starwars]
      #101402 - 03/04/08 04:01 PM

Starwars,
What are the details on your 8?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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starwars
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Re: Twist Rates for Round Balls [Re: gatsby]
      #101525 - 04/04/08 01:05 PM

J Nowotny made 1889- very nice wood- makers name in cartouche- etc etc.

--------------------
Richard


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gatsby
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Re: Twist Rates for Round Balls [Re: starwars]
      #101530 - 04/04/08 01:15 PM

Starwars,
Its the etc,etc's that keep us collecting.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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tinker
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Re: Twist Rates for Round Balls [Re: gatsby]
      #101541 - 04/04/08 02:17 PM

Starwars-

Welcome to the site!
Also, on your Nowotny, I'd really like to see some photos of your rifle.
Can you snap some shots of it and post them on a new thread?
I've seen some very interesting and very unique Prague guns, and the thought of a J Nowotny underhammer from that late in the 19th century sounds neat.
Can't wait to see it.


To the original poster of this thread, I recently got a Lyman stainless deerstalker in a swap (was going to gift it to an inlaw)
It's got a pretty fast twist rate, I think it's a turn in 38 inches, the stainless model was set up to run saboted sub caliber bullets.
I was very pleasantly surprised to find that 110gr FFg, a .530 ball, and a .020 denim patch would consistently rip ragged hole groups, without cleaning issues!
That powder charge was right at the limit of where the patch material would perform. I've settled down to a 100 grain load for that rifle to make sure I won't be blowing patches.

My squirrel rifle, my 50 caliber plains rifle, and my 16 bore double rifles all have much slower twist rates and shoot very well and are really easy to care for. I definitely didn't expect the Lyman to do so well at all, especially with round ball, especially with such a powder charge.
But it did...


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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