400NitroExpress
.400 member
Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
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Quote:
So I'd invest in a rifle you already have and that you can shoot, and I'd forget about another rifle. You don't need another one. I think that bolt-guns are far more versatile and effective for most hunters than a double anyway, and I always use bolt-action rifles for all of my hunting, including African dangerous game hunting, and i've never felt handicapped or under-equipped in any way.
tmskislc:
He's also never hunted with a double and condemns them without knowing anything about them. Bolt rifles are vastly overrated as hunting rifles. I encourage you to try the double. I think you'll like it a lot.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."
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allenday
.333 member
Reged: 18/04/04
Posts: 318
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Well friend, before you go off and make too many half-baked assumptions, you are entitled to know that I've handled, fired, and practiced with a number of good English doubles (470, 500, 450 No. 2, 577, 600) and because of those exercises, I came to the informed conclusion that I'd rather hunt with a bolt-action rifle than with a double-rifle.
That's OK, isn' it?
AD
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tmskislc
.224 member
Reged: 25/11/07
Posts: 21
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah
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Well I feel that all the posts have made the final decision for me. It would appear that I can not do much better than the Heym and it would appear that their service backs up their rifle. I will get it in the PH 450/400 and then hopefully be able to add the decorative engraving later. Still wish I could afford the safari grade, but I don't want to wait as long at it would take me to save the difference. Chris emailed me and let me know he would send one out to me next week to look at if I would just pay the return shipping. I don't know a lot of dealers who would do that. He will be at the Reno SCI show in January, so I let him know that I will come take a look at them there and come meet with him. Thanks again for everybody's support and help with this difficult decision.
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"All I ask for is the chance to prove that money can't make me happy"
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shakari
.400 member
Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
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One piece of advice I'd offer if you do buy a double is learn to shoot it properly...... I reckon at least half of the guys who arrive with doubles to hunt with me, can't shoot them as well as they should and/or as well as they think they can. - Don't be afraid to fit a scope with QD mounts as part of this....... it might not look as classical as an unscoped double, but it helps a great deal in the (esp first) shot placement..... and trophy fees are expensive.
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Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com
Edited by shakari (28/11/07 03:47 AM)
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tmskislc
.224 member
Reged: 25/11/07
Posts: 21
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah
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Thanks Steve. I might actually take you up on that Elephant offer and hunt with you sometime. I did not realize I could hunt one for those prices. Have to see how things go after the buff hunt. I am planning on putting a low powered SWAROVSKI Lighted Reticle scope on the gun with detachable mounts. I saw one on another double and the scope is incredible. Looked through it at a cape buffalo on the wall and it really sited in quickly. I did not post that prior because I knew I would probably get a lot of flack to take a pretty double and then ruin it with the scope, but my eyesight is not as great as it once was and I feel that it would benefit me on the hunt and would also work well for elk in the dark timber at home where I always have trouble seeing the entire animal in the thick brush.
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"All I ask for is the chance to prove that money can't make me happy"
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shakari
.400 member
Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
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Glad I could be of help. Swarovski is a great choice and I saw 2 o 3 of the new illuminating version this season. About the only criticism I could make of them is that the owners seemed to spend a lot of time buggering about with the switches - and always at crucual moments, - I think they're a good idea but that they need lots of practice so you can set it up quickly.
The Elephant hunts are selling well and we don't have have many dates left for 2008 - but, at least at the moment, there's plenty left for 2009 and beyond.
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Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com
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NE450No2
.375 member
Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
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TM
I have used doubles quite a bit in the US and in Zim.
I think they are the best rifle for DG and most other game as well.
Any of the new made doubles mentioned here will serve you well.
I have shot all of them.
They all handle a bit differently.
I have 2 British big bore doubles and a Chapuis in 9,3x74R.
I also hunt with Blaser R 92 bolts and have 2 D99 duos, so I am very familar with the workings of their double S2's.
The Blaser doubles are definately new technology, either you like them or you do not.
Research my previous posts here and on Accuratereloading.
The 450/400 is a great cartridge, I have one in 3 1/4" and I have killed an elephant, cape buff and a lion with it, as well as baboon, warthog, deer, wild pigs, caribou, and black bear.
If you like come by Heritage Arms here in SLC. I will be here all week.
PS I think ALL doubles 40 cal and under should be scoped.
My 450/400 3 1/4" and my 9,3x74R are both scoped, as are my D 99 Duos.
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400NitroExpress
.400 member
Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
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Quote:
One piece of advice I'd offer if you do buy a double is learn to shoot it properly...... I reckon at least half of the guys who arrive with doubles to hunt with me, can't shoot them as well as they should and/or as well as they think they can. - Don't be afraid to fit a scope with QD mounts as part of this....... it might not look as classical as an unscoped double, but it helps a great deal in the (esp first) shot placement..... and trophy fees are expensive.
See that a lot too at our DRSS hunts. Double discharges, yanking the same trigger a second time for the next shot, always firing the left barrel first because they haven't mastered double triggers yet and are afraid of a double discharge, etc. The first double rifle for most guys is a .470, and that's usually a bad mistake. Too often the result is a guy who is trying to learn double guns in general and heavy double rifles in particular at the same time - with a gun they can't stand shooting enough to get them through the learning curve, so they never really master them. They end up in the field with a capable rifle that just isn't second nature.
Far better to start with one of the lighter mediums, say .400/.350 or similar, and use it exclusively for ordinary game at home for a few years. Then the heavy double will be far easier to master and much more likely to become second nature as it should be.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."
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tmskislc
.224 member
Reged: 25/11/07
Posts: 21
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah
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Heritage Arms gave me the opportunity today to go out and shoot three double rifles in both .375 H&H and .470 NE. They had a Blaser, Krieghoff, and a Chapuis. With all the comments in regards to the Blaser, I was expecting it to shoot bad, but it was definitely the most accurate of the three and I like the sights better on this rifle than the other two. I assume the comments above are more due to the traditional look of the other double guns vs. the newer style and looks of the Blaser, rather than in the performance of the gun. I did notice they have a different look amongst each model. All the guns were very accurate at the 50 yards we were shooting them.
I was very pleased to find out that there is significantly less recoil in the .470 NE in the double rifle than my .416 Rigby in my Ruger Safari Bolt Action. In fact, the recoil was very tolerable and I removed my shoulder pad and shot several rounds with no pad and still did not have a problem with recoil of the guns. It was interesting to note fit as all have mentioned to me. All three guns were very different in feel. My best friend liked one model better, while I was very fond of one of the other models. I now understand what everybody is saying about fit. I imagine a lot of different people would like a lot of different guns if they could shoot all of them based on their build, size, etc. I can not wait to go to SCI in Reno and handle a few other models. I might be working a friends booth on Friday and Saturday at the show. His name is Tim Buma with New Zealand Trophy Hunting Ltd. If anybody is at the show, drop in and say hi. If he needs the help, I will be there in the afternoons.
Anyway, it was a great experience today and I am definitely sold on doubles. I can not wait to have my own.
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"All I ask for is the chance to prove that money can't make me happy"
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400NitroExpress
.400 member
Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
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Quote:
I assume the comments above are more due to the traditional look of the other double guns vs. the newer style and looks of the Blaser, rather than in the performance of the gun.
No. There's a lot more to it than that.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."
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hoppdoc
.400 member
Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
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Luv my bolt actions but after handling Doubles, no contest.
I think bolt actions may be more versatile but nothing compares to handling a swinging a good Double.Kinda like Bang,work the action, Bang again vs Bang,Bang-right now!!
That Bang Bang gun wins everytime!! 
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An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.
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NE450No2
.375 member
Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
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I can add to tmskislc's report that he shot very well, did not have any doubles and did not poke his eyeout , while testing the guns.
He did handle the recoil of the 470 without problem.
He is going about getting a double the correct way ie. not rushing into it, but shooting and handling as many different ones as he can.
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poprivit
.333 member
Reged: 09/04/07
Posts: 398
Loc: Las Vegas, NV
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I've owned two Blaser S2 double rifles. Both have been returned to the factory.
1. The 500/416 broke its forend within 4 shots. It would not chamber any other ammo in the right barrel other than WR. Blaser had it two times and never got it right
2. I swapped it for a 470. It was cross-eyed by 4.5 inches at 50 yards. My favorite Greek up at Heritage Arms in SLC regulated it for me. Ask him about the guy from Nevada and his 470. When I next took it out to shoot, I found that the butstock had a radial crack around the wrist. Gun is GONE! I had other problems with fit and operation - see if Heritage will tell you about the grease they cleaned out of the locks, or how the barrels would not fit into the action without work.
Go buy a Heym, or a British double. Shoot it before spending money. I'm involved in buying a Heym 470 as we speak.
Everybody above who said the same is right.
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Ripp
.577 member
Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
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Glad you had the chance to shoot them---But IMHO, don't get the Blaser.for a double..
Curious as to what you thought of handling of the others--can you be more specific.??
Will stop by at the SCI show-
Do you know what your booth number is??
-good luck...
Ripp
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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..
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tmskislc
.224 member
Reged: 25/11/07
Posts: 21
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah
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I am out of town will comment further Sat. Just have blackberry takes too long to type
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"All I ask for is the chance to prove that money can't make me happy"
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tmskislc
.224 member
Reged: 25/11/07
Posts: 21
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah
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Got computer back. Little easier to type. In reply to how I liked the handling of the others, I thought that all the rifles were very nice. I found that overall I was partial to the Chapuis. It seemed to fit my frame and body style the best of the three. I really enjoyed shooting this gun in the .470 NE caliber. It was pleasant to shoot and I loved stuffing those huge casings down the gun barrels. I have saved for years to get the Krieghoff and after shooting and holding it, it just did not fit me well. Also, I did not really like how there was little clearance between the barrels and the action when stuffing a shell back into the rifle. Seems like under high pressure, you could fail to open the action all the way and not get a new round in quick enough. The Blaser and the Chapuis were quick and easy to load and both were a pleasure to shoot. As I mentioned above, my friend who was shooting with me did not like the Chapuis. It did not fit him at all. I think that is why different people favor particular rifle makers. He is considering getting a drilling after testing the rifles. I finalized my plans for the show in January today and have been invited to share the "Kiwi House" as my friend Tim Buma refers to a home he rented for the week for himself and friends. He has also reserved a table near the front for the big auction on Saturday and has offered a donation for the auction. He is an amazing guy to hunt with and I would highly recommend him to anyone wanting to hunt in New Zealand. I met him through hunting with him and he went out of his way throughout the entire week going far above and beyond what I expected from him on the hunt. I will forward the booth info shortly. I sent an email to him a short while ago letting him know that I will definitely be coming down to help him and requesting the booth number. I plan on spending both afternoons Friday and Saturday helping him out.
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"All I ask for is the chance to prove that money can't make me happy"
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tmskislc
.224 member
Reged: 25/11/07
Posts: 21
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah
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The booth numbers for the show will be 321, 323, 325, 327. I was able to purchase a Chapuis over the weekend for a great price. I don't know that it will be the final gun for me, but I can make several thousand on it if not after I look at the rest at SCI in January so it will be a good investment for me whether I keep it or decide I want a different double. It has the upgraded scroll and upgraded wood and is a beautiful rifle. Shot 1/2" groups on the regulated papers enclosed at 50 meters. I was going to shoot it this weekend, but it snowed both days and just did not work out, so maybe next weekend.
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NE450No2
.375 member
Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
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Congratulations
I think you will find the Chapuis will serve you well.
Let us know how she shoots.
I should be back through SLC in Feb, maybe we can get together and shoot again.
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EricD
.416 member
Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 4636
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Congratulations with your new double. 
I hope you have lots of fun with it in the future.
Erik
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400NitroExpress
.400 member
Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
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Quote:
I've owned two Blaser S2 double rifles. Both have been returned to the factory.
1. The 500/416 broke its forend within 4 shots. It would not chamber any other ammo in the right barrel other than WR. Blaser had it two times and never got it right
Sounds like the rim seat was out of spec (not deep enough). I know of another S2 in .500/.416 that froze shut on firing. The quality just isn't there.
As I said before, the Chapuis is a better rifle. From your description, given the model I think you got and where you got it, yeah, it's a good price. I like their 9.3's better than the .470 in terms of handling characteristics, but they're decent rifles for the price, and they usually shoot well. I don't think you'll be disappointed in it.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."
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LarrysGrip
.224 member
Reged: 09/12/07
Posts: 34
Loc: Upstate, SC, USA
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Quote:
Everyone has a recoil threshold....I'd invest in a rifle you already have and that you can shoot....AD
Fondling fine craftsmanship in your hands and ogling the exquisite lines of a rifle is very stimulating! You have a few thresholds to consider:
Recoil
Hunt Price
I've always wanted a 2fer...
Firearm Price
Having had sales experience I can hear the salesman schmoozing you. You've got a lot of sound advice in this thread to heed.
Listen to the forum friends. You can probably leverage your money around and hunt the game you really want while you are in Africa.
Listen to your body. Invest in ammo and the gun you know that you know that you know that you can put the round in the kill zone.
I can certainly relate to your passion for a new rifle. If it's for one hunt you will probably be better served with a used rifle or just borrow one. Don't fall for the subtle serpent's spell that you just have to have 2 barrels for one shot kills. Let the Professional carry the biggest stick and do the back up for safety. If you have the hunt of a lifetime with your .375 then you can continue saving for another rifle and perhaps hunt in the future.
Listen to your bank account. Patiently wait for the firearm that will satisfy your hunt and needs. You have showed good discipline to save and wait. Persevere and the reward will be worth it, but perhaps for a hunt later on.
Having considered it all, IMHO, you probably already have the rifle for your hunt so get the ammo squared away and remember that perfect practice makes perfect. Then go hunting and enjoy it.
Best regards,
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Larry
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Nakihunter
.375 member
Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 588
Loc: New Zealand
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Larry, You should write a book on philosophy & common sense! I just love the way you communicate simple decision making logic! I also like the 6.5X55 Swede! You are spot on about the rationale of buying a DR versus saving money for a hunt. BUT I find that the desire to own a DR is NOT a rational choice at all! I will own one one day & it will be a decision of passion & desire. I hope I read your post again before I make the final decision!
Merry Christmas & God bless
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Always shoot through the target & not just at it.
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