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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Merkel open sights [Re: 93mouse]
      #90900 - 08/12/07 07:05 AM

Quote:

Would



do?




Should be fine. I like them a touch shallower. No notch. Again, a platinum bead of .080" is as large as I would go. A too large bead just because everyone seems to want one on a double is the worst mistake that you can make. An Idaho baking potato of .125" or so is fine for dinosaurs at 10 steps, but covers way too many minutes of angle at 100 yards for precision and isn't a bit easier to pick up quickly. The double I use the most has an .060" bead that I find perfect.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
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Re: Merkel open sights [Re: 9.3x57]
      #90905 - 08/12/07 07:48 AM

Quote:

If anybody has ever heard of or seen the classic English V/Bead used in precision rifle competition to 100 meters and beyond, please post it. I'd love to see it as I have never heard of or seen such a thing.




What in the world do target rifles have to do with Mouse's question? A double rifle isn't a target rifle. It's designed for a completely different purpose.

Quote:

Shooting the smaller game animals {size of the various "buck"} demands quite a bit of precision, precision I've never seen anyone accomplish routinely in the field with a V/Bead 100 or so steps.




That one is over the top. You make something that's easy and routine sound like it's difficult. I've been doing it for 20 years, and hunt with quite a number of guys that do so routinely. At our DRSS pig hunts, we usually take 20-25 hogs using double rifles with express sights, and close shots aren't the norm. We do these hunts twice a year. I've used a double with express sights exclusively for whitetail and mule deer for 20 years now. It works great!

Most people mount a rifle with express sights, look over the sights, insist that they're useless, and never make an attempt to get used to them. They looked the same to me when I got my first set on a .375. They DO take a little getting used to, but not much, and I was quickly amazed at the precision they provided in addition to speed. Designed to be the best choice for both speed and precision, the British knew what they were doing.

Quote:

In clear weather under perfect conditions it certainly can be done, but under the muck and the mire of bad weather or changeable light, that sight is, in my opinion, a serious handicap.




I've found the exact opposite to be true. Good quality express sights beat any other metallic sight in poor weather and light conditions badly, especially for those with vision problems like me.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5521
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Re: Merkel open sights [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #90914 - 08/12/07 11:51 AM

Quote:

What in the world do target rifles have to do with Mouse's question? A double rifle isn't a target rifle. It's designed for a completely different purpose.

the British knew what they were doing.

Good quality express sights beat any other metallic sight in poor weather and light conditions badly, especially for those with vision problems like me.




Well, it's good to know you read at least part of my post!

The most important part is that the only person's opinion that matters is 93Mouse's. It's his gun, and if he likes V/Beads or peeps or Battue sights, that's what he should get. I fully grant that he may indeed favor the sights you favor. You do good work with them and so might he.

But most don't.

What do target rifles have to do with it? Why, hitting a target I presume, and that is what I thought we were discussing here; that little speck of something on the shoulder or head or going-away ass of a critter a gent wants to lay down for good. I guess I disagree with you; I think the double rifle is a "target rifle" of sorts and it serves handily, if properly sighted TO THE SHOOTER'S PREFERENCE. Not mine, not your's. The shooter's preference. That is, 93Mouse's preference.

As for the sights on other "target rifles", have you ever seen a Best Ranger Competition? Have you ever qualified on a military range, rifle or pistol? Have you ever seen a pistol competition? If you have, I think you know where I'm headed here. All are competitive, all are speed shooting events and, I apologise...don't bother looking for classic English V/Beads...

Which reminds me. You cite the "Brits". As a half-Irishman and descendant of an Lieutentant in a North Carolina Regiment of the Continental Army, it pains me to give them credit for anything { }, but good heavens, credit where credit is due!

Indeed, I agree with you. They did {and some still do} know a thing or two about shooting and a fellow by the sobriquet of Major EGB Reynolds {know him?} jotted it down in print for us. So let's take them for example. Extensive trials in military service were done with "Express sights" of the wide V rear, bead front from 1900 to 1902. Some troops using such sighted rifles favored them, but ultimately both the trials units and the rifle Board rejected them based on a very diverse shooting program including both white targets with black bullseyes and khaki over earth tone targets. And before you state that this shooting was done by a ragtag mob of conscripts, remember that this testing was done in part by combat tested troops {fresh back from tours in the Second War of Independence in South Africa}, units that made up the pre-WW1 British Army and whose input resulted in arguably the best bolt action battle rifle ever fielded. And yes, much rapid fire and snap shooting was done at all ranges.

The truth is, if I am wrong about the majority of shooters doing better with wide notch rear flat topped front sights {and I have no axe to grind here, to each his own}, I don't have to concede to you, but rather to Jabalihunter and most every Military Ordnance Board the world over, who conclusively have demonstrated that peep rear sights work best for most people, for quick fire and deliberate fire. And good gravy, ditto the Brits, again... See the War Office 1929 Textbook of Small Arms, page 32. And I have seen a peep mounted on a double before. Very sleek {no rear sight mounted on the barrel} and very useful-looking. I believe the peep rear was a custom job, but I don't remember. It was years ago.

Can you do good work with a wide V rear, bead front? I concede you can. I bet you never lose a pig. But can most people? Well, the vast majority of shooting tests for the past hundred or so years indicates they cannot. I find myself in that crowd.

But who cares about me, you or the vast majority of shooters living and long gone. WE don't matter.

Only 93Mouse does, and I'm only giving him my opinion.

He might love your sights. And if he does and can do great work with them, I'm all for them. My point is that on an expensive gun he might do well to shoot a variety of sights first and before he commits to a set that doesn't work out well. That way he can see what he likes and does best with under a wide variety of conditions, and then have that type installed on his gun. I certainly could be wrong, but I believe he'll find himself in the larger group not the smaller group, and that larger group is not the ones that favor classic V/Beads.

I do wish you well, and also 93Mouse in his search for the best sights for him and his hunting.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
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Re: Merkel open sights [Re: 9.3x57]
      #91133 - 10/12/07 01:33 PM

Quote:


Well, it's good to know you read at least part of my post!




I read enough of it to know that you didn't read Mouse's.

Quote:

The most important part is that the only person's opinion that matters is 93Mouse's. It's his gun, and if he likes V/Beads or peeps or Battue sights, that's what he should get. I fully grant that he may indeed favor the sights you favor. You do good work with them and so might he.




Correct

Quote:

But most don't.




False. Indeed, I've had the opportunity to watch a lot of shooters using them. In my observation, your statement is just flat untrue.

Quote:

But who cares about me, you or the vast majority of shooters living and long gone. WE don't matter.

Only 93Mouse does, and I'm only giving him my opinion.





Correct, and if you'd read his first post, you'd know that he asked his question because he's already experiencing the normal limitations of the poor sights that you repeatedly recommend - the square notch and flat post that comes on Merkels. Re-read his post and look at the photo. The makers use them on these guns not because they're what's best, but because they're cheap. Almost all of the guys I know personally that have bought Merkels have had the same reaction that Mouse did and have had them replaced them with better sights - expresses. You recommended what he already has and doesn't like.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: Merkel open sights [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #91135 - 10/12/07 01:39 PM

Quote:

Correct, and if you'd read his first post, you'd know that he asked his question because he's already experiencing the normal limitations of the poor sights that you repeatedly recommend - the square notch and flat post that comes on Merkels. Re-read his post and look at the photo. The makers use them on these guns not because they're what's best, but because they're cheap. Almost all of the guys I know personally that have bought Merkels have had the same reaction that Mouse did and have had them replaced them with better sights - expresses. You recommended what he already has and doesn't like.




I beg to differ. In fact, his front sight is not what I recommended at all.

The problem with his sights are that the front sight is a fuzzy colored mush. It is in fact not what I recommended and in fact it approximates and does exactly what a round front sight does, at least for my eyes; it provides a hazy reference point, good only for big, clearly defined targets.

Take a deep breath and read the posts again.

Another man's opinion follows. I'll post it again here for the folks reading this one, too.

"THE TRADITIONAL OPEN V BACKSIGHT IS A SECOND-RATE CHOICE, FIT ONLY TO SERVE AS AN EMERGENCY STAND-BY. THE 'GHOST RING' APERTURE (JEFF COOPER'S DESCRIPTION) IS VASTLY SUPERIOR UNDER ALL CONDITIONS, FOR ANY PURPOSE WHATSOEVER." Finn Aagaard, American Rifleman, March 1984, page 76.

I agree with this. Unable to use a peep due to scope mounts or whatever, however, I'll stick with a big square rear like that on 93Mouse's Merkel, combined with a big square, black front {not the fuzzy, glowing, colored, bead-like plastic thing he wants to get rid of}, or did I say something to that effect already?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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93mouse
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Reged: 17/08/07
Posts: 745
Loc: Slovenia
Re: Merkel open sights [Re: 9.3x57]
      #91169 - 10/12/07 08:11 PM

Hello guys - whew busy weekend I guess - thank you all for your sincere thoughts - been busy myself - shot another red calf in a snow storm with fibers (still waiting for express sights to arrive) - it came behind hind in a slow trot at 30 m - and after shot went straight down - entry infront of his left shoulder exit as seen on pic (sory taken with cell phone)...



I am still learning - accepted that with existing fibre front post expected POI (takin in account mine shooting abilities, rifle and sights) just culminates with the size of the front sight (area it covers), having biggest problem with shifting from my habituated 6 o'clock hold to covering 12 o'clock hold (worked this time) - thank you all for bearing with me will report further.


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hoppdoc
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Re: Merkel open sights [Re: 9.3x57]
      #91173 - 11/12/07 12:12 AM

My personal experience is that a peep rear with a linear non-bead front sight is the most accurate open sight for a rifle, but express sights are the fastest to get on target and shoot.

When some animal over a ton is charging, wishing to rip me to pieces, I will sacrifice some accuracy over speed any day.

When I try to shoot a handgun at speed sometimes I cannot see the front sight if my grip is wrong(yes,I know with practice this shouldn't occur but occasionally it does)--the off line front sight cannot be seen in the rear sights notch!!I find my fastest handgun shooting with an XS express set up--i.e., somewhat like sights on an express rifle.Fast yes, but not nearly as accurate for old eyes.

Maybe I have not understood and missed the point entirely but I think the difference is like apples and oranges, their different!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
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Re: Merkel open sights [Re: 9.3x57]
      #91179 - 11/12/07 02:56 AM

Quote:

I beg to differ. In fact, his front sight is not what I recommended at all.

The problem with his sights are that the front sight is a fuzzy colored mush.




It's a flat top post with a square notch, and that IS what you recommend. This one is differs from most other Merkels only in color. I've seen a few of these, but most don't have the insert. If you knew anything about the rifles under discussion, you would know that, but you obviously don't. Like I said, almost everyone I know personally that bought Merkels changed the sights to expresses, and I'm referring to the standard sights without the insert.

Quote:

Take a deep breath and read the posts again.




You should do the same.

Quote:

"THE TRADITIONAL OPEN V BACKSIGHT IS A SECOND-RATE CHOICE, FIT ONLY TO SERVE AS AN EMERGENCY STAND-BY. THE 'GHOST RING' APERTURE (JEFF COOPER'S DESCRIPTION) IS VASTLY SUPERIOR UNDER ALL CONDITIONS, FOR ANY PURPOSE WHATSOEVER." Finn Aagaard, American Rifleman, March 1984, page 76.




I never agreed much with either of those guys, especially about the ghost ring. Again, terrible in poor light. Aagaard also said that a scope was always faster until all conditions, no matter what - the most asinine statement on the subject I've ever heard made. As for Cooper, talk about a military straight-jacket...

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: Merkel open sights [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #91187 - 11/12/07 03:35 AM

Quote:

I never agreed much with either of those guys, especially about the ghost ring. Again, terrible in poor light. Aagaard also said that a scope was always faster until all conditions, no matter what - the most asinine statement on the subject I've ever heard made. As for Cooper, talk about a military straight-jacket...




Hey 400, tell me what I said again?

Here's another two for you to disagree with:

Jack O'Connor {peep rear} and Elmer Keith {Sourdough front}.

Sources available on request.

With all the cork poppers lining up, we're gonna have one whale of a party!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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93mouse
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Reged: 17/08/07
Posts: 745
Loc: Slovenia
Re: Merkel open sights [Re: 9.3x57]
      #92563 - 24/12/07 07:43 PM

Hi guys - its me again - and I am rather confused even further. I was on driven hunt high in the Alps on Saturday, when a guy on my left made a shot and there was a mouflon ram coming down the slope with his rear leg broken - I took a calm R-L that stopped the animal (Mouflon are notoriusly hard) - ram was still on his front legs - so I moved the aim bit further toward neck and gave him another R - put him to rest. First R-L were 1 1/2 inch apart (as barrels )- right behind the shoulder (they have made just one exit wound) and the last R was between neck and shoulder. Shots were at ~60 m. I don't know now - looks like I am catching up with rifle and her sights - I mean - field performance is just brilliant i.e. bullets are where I want them to be. So dilemma proceeds - my hart is saying go for express sights while my mind is saying stay with fibers...



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peter
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Reged: 11/04/07
Posts: 1493
Loc: denmark
Re: Merkel open sights [Re: 93mouse]
      #92564 - 24/12/07 08:29 PM

aaaahhhh mouse

you got me moving to slovenia soon.

weidmannsheil to you, that is one nice mouflon.

merry christmas

peter


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9.3x57
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Re: Merkel open sights [Re: peter]
      #92574 - 25/12/07 01:50 AM

93Mouse;

This does not surprise me at all.

SOMETIMES those fiber front sights will give excellent resolution, sometimes not. What I don't like about the fiber sights is that they appear to my eyes to vary alot with the brightness of the sun and/or lighting conditions and can thus give a "fuzzy" picture sometimes.

Basically, though, as mentioned before, based on the pictures {I've never seen one up close} I like the sight shapes on that gun, especially the rear. I would just prefer a different colored front sight, that is, a dull, black, square front that you can color to contrast background if need be, and just-as-importantly of a width that allows light to be seen between the sides of the sight and the inside of the rear notch.

It would be nice if you could actually use a set of wide V/Bead "Express" sights so you could make a comparison and a final judgment for yourself, before making a costly or irreparable change to your gun. Having said that, if you like what you have, no reason to change at all. Save the money from the Express sights and buy more ammo!!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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93mouse
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Re: Merkel open sights [Re: zimhunter]
      #94889 - 21/01/08 07:37 PM

Still on fibers - went through the post again and tried out this:

Quote:

My 141 in 8x57 has the same front sight with a conventional rear. I thought the top was not delineated enough so I painted the tope EDGE flat black and the definition improved to my eye anyway.




So I put a black tape on and hooded that front post:



Results (2x R-L at 60 m):



Good advice zimhunter - thanks!


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93mouse
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Re: Merkel open sights [Re: 93mouse]
      #98613 - 07/03/08 07:12 PM

Itch was just unbearable - express sights were allready on order, when on one of the last hunts last year I handled my friends double fitted with ones (shallow V - silver bead) in the woods and got rather dissapointed with efforts needed picking them out in different lighting conditions (especialy when light comes from front). So I took a good thought on the matter and decided to give a try to Recknagel smalest fiber bead (2mm) and rear that comes with it.

Front:



Rear (upper height of the side forks is originaly adjusted to bigger bead - they were lowered so the upper edge alignes with top of the bead) :



Look trough them with rear light against dark background:



With front light:



Glow of the front bead is steady with no side light effects - black hoops frame it nice. So I took the bull by its horns and went at 100m range right away. Front post diameter coincide with outer circle diameter of target when aiming at 100m. So I put R-L with 293 factory TUG's (lower hits) and R-L with factory Norma 230gr Oryx and got lucky on those two must admit .



Ah I hear Iggy Pop's on that one:

"So I take a little bad with the good
It ain't just black and white
(It still ain't black and white)
You've got to deal with the real
Woo, living on the edge of the night"

So the search is over (till nex time ) - I will sleep good tonight.

Thanks to all that contributed to this thread - it was an enjoyable journey and I loved it all the way.


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