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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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watto
.275 member


Reged: 10/06/07
Posts: 90
Loc: Victoria,Australia
.500NE conversion
      #88239 - 05/11/07 03:05 AM

G'day All.

Could somebody help me out with the pressures reached with standard loads for the .500x3 1/4 NE?
The reason I ask is that I am looking at having a DR conversion built and wondered if the pressures can be kept low enough with this round. I already have a 500NE but in a Ruger #1 which of course can handle much higher pressure. The basis for the conversion will be a Fausti 12g which is quite a solid gun with a Greener style cross bolt. These guns are sold in the US under the name of one of the major gun producers I believe,but I am not sure which one. The gun is in excellent condition, almost like new, with an extremely tight lock up. It looks like it has had only very light use. Externally it had a few marks on the stock, which had been varnished at some stage. The varnish is now removed and the stock oiled, which has come up rather well. I will be getting the work done by Miall's gunshop, but have only spoken to them by phone so far but they seem to think the gun should be suitable for conversion, but we haven't decided on calibre yet. If I can do it in 500NE it means I already have reloading gear and cases. I would also then sell the Ruger to help pay for the conversion. Without wanting to upset the purists I would like to get some thoughts on the idea of fitting an adjustable regulating device to the barrels? I have used one of these on my Baikal 9.3 and it works etremely well. This would also save a fair amount of money due to the time involved for a gunsmith with traditonal regulating.

Thanks and good shooting, Ian.

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peter
removed


Reged: 11/04/07
Posts: 1493
Loc: denmark
Re: .500NE conversion [Re: watto]
      #88245 - 05/11/07 07:45 AM

ian

i think that with a caliber as big as the 500 ne. you should steer clear of regulating devices in any shape and form.


just my 2 cents

peter

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: .500NE conversion [Re: peter]
      #88255 - 05/11/07 02:17 PM

A full nitro .500 is going to need to weigh 11 lbs or so to be comfortable to shoot IMHO. Difficult to get this much weight into any converted shotgun, without ruining the handling. Heavy barrels and equal weight added inside the butstock will probably be the gunsmith's solution, which results in an absolute slug of a gun. If you want a lively double, the weight simply must be between the hands.

Have you addressed this in any way?

Sounds like the action may well be up to it, but my recommendation would always be to have the gun regulated for a lighter charge. To me that would mean the 440gr Woodleigh at up to 2050 fps or thereabouts, or the 570gr bullet at perhaps 1850 fps max. The latter would be best if you wish to shoot solids of course.

Either way, you would still have a wonderful killer, and a bigger margin for error pressure-wise. The weight distribution and handling qualities of the finished DR need not be so disasterous then either.

If you are a masochist, and can handle a 9 lb .500 Nitro, then please disregard the above!
What does your No.1 weigh all-up?

Pressure data for the NEs is best obtained from Wrightie's book, which also contains historical tables as appendices. I'm away from my library right now, but someone will chime in I'm sure.

Good luck with the project, keep us posted on progress, and a series of photos of the shottie in question as it meets the angle-grinder would be interesting to see as well.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5284
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: .500NE conversion [Re: Marrakai]
      #88267 - 05/11/07 10:08 PM

Why would you build a .500 3.25" NE instead of the now standard .500 3"?

Just curious
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: .500NE conversion [Re: CptCurl]
      #88275 - 06/11/07 12:10 AM

Just checked Graeme's book:
The original pressure for the 3-inch .500 NE cordite 'factory-load' was 16 tons.

Using modern single-based powders, the same ballistics can usually be achieved with only 13 to 14 tons pressure.

Expect the extra 1/4-inch of case-length in the 3 1/4 version to be only slightly less, since with modern powders the problem is usually too much space in the case, which then requires a filler or wad-column.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: .500NE conversion [Re: watto]
      #88294 - 06/11/07 03:05 AM

Standard chamber pressure for the .500 3" Nitro Express is 40,610 PSI. The old technology standard was 16 tons bolt thrust (which isn't chamber pressure). The old 3 1/4" version cut roughly a half ton off the old 3" standard, but that isn't PSI. I can't see any sense at all in chambering a current gun for 3 1/4". I wouldn't want a conversion on a shotgun action in either caliber.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5284
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Re: .500NE conversion [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #88401 - 07/11/07 12:32 PM

Quote:

I wouldn't want a conversion on a shotgun action in either caliber.



I agree heartily.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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watto
.275 member


Reged: 10/06/07
Posts: 90
Loc: Victoria,Australia
Re: .500NE conversion [Re: Marrakai]
      #88471 - 08/11/07 07:09 AM

G'day guys and thanks for your suggestions.

Marrakai: Thanks for the info, I can't find my copy of GW's book, I think it's buried in the shed in a case of books from our last move. If as your info suggests with modern powders the pressure can be kept down to 13T and still roughly equate the original spec's, it sounds like it is in the (Safe) realms of possibility. I don't have a problem with downloading if I need to, to achieve a safe load. I will not be hunting Ele's, it will probably put more holes in cardboard than anything else, with an occasional Sambar or a pig to justify it's place in the gun safe, and hopefully a buff hunt up north
in the not too distant future. I had already thought about the weight distribution and thought I would ask the gunsmith to work out a suitable profile maintaining the full 12g outer barrel dimension, then a fast taper to the muzzle, keeping most of the weight near the breech. In answer to the weight question my Ruger #1 with open sights is 9.9 pound and the only load I have shot so far is 90gr of ADI 2209 pushing a Woodleigh 570gr RN SN. That groups as good as I can shoot with open sights these days
with about a 2" group at 50 yds, standing with a tree side rest. I am thinking of fitting an peep sight and a fiber optic fore sight while waiting for the DR.

Cpt Curl: The reason for .500 x 3.25" was that I already have the cases and I was thinking that the larger case would help to keep the pressure down. But as Marrakai pointed out that is not a problem with modern powders, and it is usually the other way, with too much free space in the case. So looking at this I from that angle I will probably go back to 3".

Peter: I would be interested to hear your thoughts as to why a regulating device will work on a 9.3 x 74, but not on a .500NE. My idea was to physically beef it up a little to handle the extra recoil but if there is another problem you can see I am more than happy to listen to any advice you may have on the matter.

Thanks again all, Ian.

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watto
.275 member


Reged: 10/06/07
Posts: 90
Loc: Victoria,Australia
Re: .500NE conversion [Re: Marrakai]
      #88701 - 11/11/07 11:03 AM

Marrakai, G'day again.

I've had a look at a previous post of yours which had 2 pic's comparing a Greener and another action. Although it is hard to judge without the actual dimensions the Fausti action appears to be
of slightly heavier construction all over than the Greener. This does not say anything about quality of course and I will leave the final decision up to the gunsmith doing the job. If he believes it to be safe to use in the pressure range you mentioned, I will go ahead with the .500NE
conversion, otherwise I will look at another calibre.

All the best, Ian.

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peter
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Reged: 11/04/07
Posts: 1493
Loc: denmark
Re: .500NE conversion [Re: watto]
      #91966 - 18/12/07 10:54 PM

Quote:

Peter: I would be interested to hear your thoughts as to why a regulating device will work on a 9.3 x 74, but not on a .500NE. My idea was to physically beef it up a little to handle the extra recoil but if there is another problem you can see I am more than happy to listen to any advice you may have on the matter.

Thanks again all, Ian.



it is just my idea that you should have them regulated for a specific load and then you could always do a 75% load for it as well.
i think that a regulating device that would hold up to the recoil and twist, will be to big and out of place looking.
remember it is not the recoil alone but very much the barrels twisting that is a factor.

i also think that the regulating device is at its upper limits with the 9,3x74r and not needed there. a lot of 9,3 do very well without.

again just my 2 cents, i have never build a 500 NE so i dont have first hand expirence.

regards

peter

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: .500NE conversion [Re: peter]
      #91991 - 19/12/07 07:53 AM

I'd be very careful of making a .500 Nitro on a shotgun. We're talking chamber pressure here and while a double shotgun is slightly overbuilt for the typical 11,000PSI of a pelet load they are not designed for 35,000PSI.
; I know conversions have been made and so far seem to stand up to 2,000fps wiht 500gr. bullets, BUT, I really don't think I'd shoot one, myself. Black Powder, or equivalent loads yes, but not in smokeless. BP loads will run about 25,000SPI. I would have nothing to do with ANOTHER 3-1/4" .50 cal case. One's enough. WAYYYYY too much room in that case for black powder and especially smokeless. Of course, that's just my opinion.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: .500NE conversion [Re: DarylS]
      #92114 - 20/12/07 06:30 AM

Quote:

I'd be very careful of making a .500 Nitro on a shotgun. We're talking chamber pressure here and while a double shotgun is slightly overbuilt for the typical 11,000PSI of a pelet load they are not designed for 35,000PSI.



I agree. BTW, max average for the .500 Nitro Express is 40,610 PSI, so pressures of CIP standard factory ammo will be fairly close to that. I don't want to shoot one of those built on a shotgun action.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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