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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
8X57JR(S) question
      #87265 - 17/10/07 04:56 AM

(1) Is am 8X57JR the same as an 8X57JRS? I've only seen reference to JRS.

(2) Can you reload an 8X57JR(S) using 8X57J(S)?

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freischuetz
.224 member


Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 23
Re: 8X57JR(S) question [Re: bonanza]
      #87274 - 17/10/07 07:16 AM

IS ( i s ) i, standing for infantry, (not JS) are 323 Bullet size Barrel 7.89mm lands and 8.20 grove diameter.
I or ( i ) are 318 bullets barrel 7.80mm lands and 8.07mm grove

The added "R" on both version is for Rimmed ( Rand ) Cases.

Bullet diameter is on all "S" loadings 8.22mm for non "S" diameter is 8.09mm

Standard Pressure for "IS" is 3400 bar
" for "IRS" is 2900 bar (Rimmed)
" for "I" is 3300 bar
" for "IR" is 2800 bar (Rimmed)

to complicate the issue you also get a 8x57R_360 that uses only a bullet diameter of 8.09mm and is loaded to a maximum of 2200 bar

1 bar = 14.50PSI

1 mm = 0,03937008 inches

Best slug the barrel if there is not a "S" with the caliber marking on the barrel!

and you cant use load data for rimless cases for rimmed cases pressure would be to high!

Hope this make sense to you

--------------------
Time is your treasure use it wisely you can never replace it

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Kalunga
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Reged: 16/06/06
Posts: 328
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Re: 8X57JR(S) question [Re: bonanza]
      #87275 - 17/10/07 07:23 AM

Hi bonanza

There is in deed a difference between 8x57IR and 8x57IRS. The 8x57IR is the rimmed version of the older 8x57I ( "I" for "Infantrie", "R" means "rimmed" ), once the standard military round M88 of the German army, which was modernized in 1905 and since then there are two almost identical 8mm calibers on the market. The S-calibers have a slightly larger bullet/bore diameter ( .323 ) compared to the older rounds ( .318 ), which is not only confusing but forbids using the newer 8x57IRS in the old guns chambered for 8x57IR, excessive pressure would result.

Regarding reloading there is first the problem to find bullets in .318 diameter for the old cartridge, here we have the choice between a 196 grains round-nose from RWS or Sellier and Bellot ( Czech made ).
Dies for the 8x57I are available from RCBS and can be used for the rimmed version as well, but be prepared to pay a premium price.
In a pinch, You could use a 8x57IS die without the expander,otherwise the bullet would be loose in the neck.
Cases are available ( at least here in Germany ) from RWS, but 8x57IRS cases can be used without problems, as long as You don`t get confused with the head stamp.

Kalunga

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zimhunter
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Reged: 05/02/04
Posts: 388
Loc: Southern Arizona
Re: 8X57JR(S) question [Re: Kalunga]
      #87276 - 17/10/07 07:34 AM

I don't speak or read German but suppose the 'I' and 'J' designator are used interchangably for some reason. My Merkel 141 is Marked 8x57JRS and I would suppose they know. The 'J' is VERY clear on the boxend. It is of course.323 and not the older .318 bore.

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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: 8X57JR(S) question [Re: zimhunter]
      #87287 - 17/10/07 10:56 AM

I'm toying with the idea of this Geyger O/U from Champlins.

http://www.champlinarms.com/Default.aspx...3&GunID=860

He has it listed as an 8X57IR, however; it was made in 1938. Well after the introduction of the 8X57IS.

Can it be that even in 1938 the .318 rimmed was still being produced? Or, do you think that the rifle really is an 8x57IRS.

B.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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freischuetz
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Reged: 05/04/04
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Re: 8X57JR(S) question [Re: bonanza]
      #87299 - 17/10/07 06:22 PM

Zimhunter
In the old German writing style the only difference between the capital J and I was a small line to the left on top. So the J without the small top line to the left was a I. I stand for infantry with introduction of the lighter “Spitzer” bullet the change was made to 323 bullet diameter and the S was added for Spitzer from there IS Infantry Spitzer indicates the change to 323.
However commercial manufacturing for civilian rifles carried on and only gradually the 323 version got introduced to the civilian market you find 318 manufactured rifles and combination guns build up to WW2. I don’t know of any new build German rifles in 318 caliber after 1948.

Bonanza

This is a strongly build quality gun and could be actually been build by Merkel for the trade sure looks like it. Will last yours and your kids lifetime the caliber is underrated and will kill anything very efficient in NA and most of the stuff in Africa as well!
Bullets in 318 are made by Norma, Woodlight, RWS, GS, Rhino etc. get a good supply of 196grs and you set for life, as cases you can use 8x57IRS no problem. Reloading dies 8mm mauser for the rimless will work fine but you have to get 318 expander for it or just sand the 323 expander down get a Lee factory crimp die and you set.

If there is no “S” marking on the barrel it is most likely a I 318 bore just slug the barrel or make a cast to be sure.

German manufactured ammo in 323 have a black ring on the primer an extra grove on the visible part of the bullet and extra marking on the box.

--------------------
Time is your treasure use it wisely you can never replace it

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fraserdouble
.275 member


Reged: 06/06/06
Posts: 50
Loc: Australia
Re: 8X57JR(S) question [Re: freischuetz]
      #87304 - 17/10/07 09:12 PM

freischuetz

I note your comments on Geyger, obviously you know of this maker.

If you have any information about this maker/retailer could you please advise, as information is really scarce.
Cheers
Fraserdouble

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fuhrmann
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Reged: 04/01/05
Posts: 328
Loc: Switzerland
Re: 8X57JR(S) question [Re: bonanza]
      #87324 - 18/10/07 02:39 AM

Quote:


He has it listed as an 8X57IR, however; it was made in 1938. Well after the introduction of the 8X57IS.

Can it be that even in 1938 the .318 rimmed was still being produced? Or, do you think that the rifle really is an 8x57IRS.

B.



Most German 8 mm hunting rifles before WWII were made for the "J" or .318 calibers. This does not regard only the rimmed cartridges - you also have to be careful with bolt action rifles.
Only in 1939 with a new proof law there were clear regulations how to label ammunition and rifle barrels to avoid confusion, and the decision not to produce any new rifles using the "J" caliber.
While the rimless 8x57IS was quite old in 1939, the rimmed 8x57IRS was new.

So you have to be careful with any guns made before that time. Best to slug the barrels.

Fuhrmann

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: 8X57JR(S) question [Re: bonanza]
      #87347 - 18/10/07 07:29 AM

Bonanza,

I have a pre-war (1939) Sauer & Sohn sidelock drilling with separate rifle barrel cocking in 16/16/8X57JR and a Greifelt pre-war (1939) drilling in 12/12/8X60R. Both use the smaller .318" bullet and both are great performers. I suspect that the real problem with the .323" bullet is the fact that the larger bullet means that the cartridge is .005" larger in the neck and the chambers cut for the older .318" bullet simply have too little neck clearance.

It might be fun to take a bolt rifle with the J bore and rechamber it for the S bullet, just to see how much of a difference it made in pressure. After all, .005" is only 1.5% of the .318" bore diameter, and I know of at least one instance of a .308" bullet being shot through a .264" bore with no ill effects, and the .044" difference represents a 16.6% increase in bullet size over bore size.

However, as has been pointed out above, the correct .318 bullets are not all that hard to obtain and bringing one of these beauties back to life is well worth the effort involved. I would want to mount a scope on that rifle, but I assume you know someone competent to do this. Looks like a great buy!

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zimhunter
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Reged: 05/02/04
Posts: 388
Loc: Southern Arizona
Re: 8X57JR(S) question [Re: xausa]
      #87384 - 19/10/07 12:01 AM

I owned an Otto Geyger S/S in 8x60RS that was made sometime before 1938. Was the finest double in quality I have owned. It was in excellant condition except for the horn buttplate which was very worm eaten and had to be replaced. Everything about it was 'best' quality in all ways. Never had any factory 8x60 brass but RCBS had dies to make from 9.3x74r brass. It was a very very accurate rifle and I really enjoyed shooting it. I had adapter bases made to use Leupold rings to fit the original claw bases by removing the front base (it was dovetailed) and replacing it. It could easily be returned to original. It was one accurate rifle and shot well into 1/2" with both barrels with only a small spread between barrels. Would be a fine plains game rifle. I have never seen a Geyger rifle that was NOT 'best' quality. The attention to detail was complete. Even the small front bracket that held the horn guard and screwed into the frame was engraved and it could only be seen plainly when removed. As with most guns I've owned wish I had it back. That's the sad fact of life trying to own fine guns on normal wages something always has to go to get something new. As I get older I get more and more reluctant to let go.

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: 8X57JR(S) question [Re: freischuetz]
      #87396 - 19/10/07 02:16 AM

Quote:

Standard Pressure for "IS" is 3400 bar
" for "IRS" is 2900 bar (Rimmed)
" for "I" is 3300 bar
" for "IR" is 2800 bar (Rimmed)

to complicate the issue you also get a 8x57R_360 that uses only a bullet diameter of 8.09mm and is loaded to a maximum of 2200 bar



None of the above is correct.

The current CIP Maximum Average Pressure (max service pressure) for these cartridges:

8X57IS (rimless S bore) = 3900 BAR or 56,564 PSI

8X57I (rimless I bore) = 3800 BAR or 55,114 PSI

8X57IRS (rimmed S bore) = 3300 BAR or 47,862 PSI

8X57IR (rimmed I bore) = 3200 BAR or 46,412 PSI

8X57R 360 = 2450 BAR or 35,534 PSI

The rimmed 8s are loaded to much lower pressure than the rimless and rimless loading data should not be used.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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freischuetz
.224 member


Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 23
Re: 8X57JR(S) question [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #87415 - 19/10/07 11:19 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Standard Pressure for "IS" is 3400 bar
" for "IRS" is 2900 bar (Rimmed)
" for "I" is 3300 bar
" for "IR" is 2800 bar (Rimmed)

to complicate the issue you also get a 8x57R_360 that uses only a bullet diameter of 8.09mm and is loaded to a maximum of 2200 bar



None of the above is correct.

The current CIP Maximum Average Pressure (max service pressure) for these cartridges:

8X57IS (rimless S bore) = 3900 BAR or 56,564 PSI

8X57I (rimless I bore) = 3800 BAR or 55,114 PSI

8X57IRS (rimmed S bore) = 3300 BAR or 47,862 PSI

8X57IR (rimmed I bore) = 3200 BAR or 46,412 PSI

8X57R 360 = 2450 BAR or 35,534 PSI

The rimmed 8s are loaded to much lower pressure than the rimless and rimless loading data should not be used.



All of it is correct!

I did not say anything about CPI Values of today! The values i gave are from the German firearms law book in which little things like minimum / maximum camber dimension Maximum pressure maximum head-space etc specified for each caliber and of course you got the same for cartridge's everything in the smallest detail and that is the standard on which the gun was build looooong before CPI came in to the picture

The gun was build by Merkel in Suhl, Germany, for Geyger in Berlin (Cabela's type Sales business only). Suhl and Berlin are located in Germany and the Rifle was build around 1935-38 and it was proofed under the German law of the time and that's are the values i quoted!

400 do you still think i am wrong and you right??

by the way my max pressures for the rimmed version are 300bar lower than yours / CPI?



cheers

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freischuetz
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Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 23
Re: 8X57JR(S) question [Re: fraserdouble]
      #87419 - 19/10/07 12:12 PM

Quote:

freischuetz

I note your comments on Geyger, obviously you know of this maker.

If you have any information about this maker/retailer could you please advise, as information is really scarce.
Cheers
Fraserdouble




Fraserdouble

i remember Geyger i did came across them before and as i recall they retail shop only and i think they had a gunsmith in House to do repairs and fit scopes claw mounts etc. i got some very old literature and catalogs the problem is i got 3 full 12 feet shipping container (moving) to unpack and most of my books are somewhere inside the containers. remind me in 6-12 months maybe i found them.

Sorry cant help at the moment

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
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Re: 8X57JR(S) question [Re: freischuetz]
      #87422 - 19/10/07 01:45 PM

Quote:



I did not say anything about CPI Values of today!



Yes, you did. I was well aware that the figures you gave were long obsolete crusher data, but then you added:

Quote:

1 bar = 14.50 PSI



...which, with respect to crusher data, it most certainly is not. Crusher data is not convertible to PSI, only current piezo electric transducer data is. They're totally different measuring systems. You gave obsolete crusher data and then made quite clear that you meant that it was the current piezo data by adding the above quote, which applies only to current piezo data. Your statement is wrong.

Quote:

the gun was build looooong before CPI came in to the picture



Germany may not have been a member then, but CIP was around well before that rifle was built.

Quote:

Suhl and Berlin are located in Germany and the Rifle was build around 1935-38 and it was proofed under the German law of the time and that's are the values i quoted!



...which are long obsolete and, other than an interesting factoid, not relevant in any way today. Evaluation of current ammunition for use in this rifle today is exclusively by current CIP standard as it's the one required by law and the only pressure measurement system that is still in general use.

Quote:

400 do you still think i am wrong and you right??



Yes, I do.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: 8X57JR(S) question [Re: bonanza]
      #87626 - 23/10/07 08:28 AM

BONANZA, you can use the load data for the 8X57 Mauser, less 5% and work up from there! The 8x57 Mauser works in the range of around 46,000 PSI, and the 8x57JR at about 44,000 psi, both useing a 196 gr bullet! That is, if your rifle is in good condition! Don't sweat the small stuff, the 8x57JR is a very good cartridge, and is a fine rifle for anything up to, and including Moose!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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