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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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JusticeTrimble
.224 member


Reged: 25/04/07
Posts: 49
Loc: Louisville, KY.
Double Slug Gun Questions??
      #87077 - 14/10/07 12:48 AM

Hey Guys,

I've read alot about how some of you are working on regulating the barrels of a side-by-side shotgun to shoot slugs in it. I don't have the time nor the knowledge, skills and experience to do things like that. However, I'd love to have a good double slug gun. Does anyone out there know where or who I could send a side-by-side to have it made into a decent slug gun? I know something like this would probably cost a few dollars. I wouldn't expect to get it done cheaply. So, if you know where I can get that done, I'd sure appreciate your help with this.

Thanks for your time,

JT

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empirevr
.375 member


Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.
Re: Double Slug Gun Questions?? [Re: JusticeTrimble]
      #87088 - 14/10/07 06:46 AM

JT

Hello,

Not interested in using the patched ball method then?

Daryl will advise.

-I have my eyes open for a 3" chamber hammer double, with which I shall use the patched ball method. This means ball for big game,buck for medium/small, and then 8/10 size for small game. An all-rounder.

I also wonder about the Zabala Hermanos modern 10g for use as a multi-purpose paradox type gun.

Good luck

Ben

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Double Slug Gun Questions?? [Re: JusticeTrimble]
      #87234 - 16/10/07 11:57 AM

While I have developed loads that made my double shoot together, I know of no one who will 'alter' a shotgun to make it shoot factory slugs.
; I have little or no faith in factory slugs anyway. I am aware that many hunterw speak highly of Brenneke slugs, but they aren't a big ticket item around here & I have not tested them personally.
; What I do have faith in, is solid round balls. I was able to achieve 8" groups wiht my double gun, at 100 yards, quite easily. Balls may be patched inside a shotshell, like my friends did for their pump duck guns, or using cupped wad bases to hold the ball in the centre of the bore as I did for my double gun.
; Loads must be developed for a given gun to make it shoot the way one wants it to. This takes time, lots of time and money, not only for components but for fuel for the many trips to the range before one finds suitable loads. Ballistics obtainable with smokeless loads will run a 480gr. to 590gr. round ball (depending on size) to well over 1,550fps, which about matches the heavy 7 dram black powder load for 19th century 12's used in Africa. I know for a fact that a 12 bore ball, starting off in excess of 1,400fps at the muzzle, cannot be kept inside a bull moose, from any angle, if shot within 100 yards. Reducing the velocity to 1,100fps was necesary to recover a ball on a 100 yard moose.
: JT - I see you are from Kentucky - this prevents me from offering you physical help regarding working up loads for your gun as I would need it in my possession. As far as I know, no one is currently doing this in the States, but perhaps your post will ellicite a positive responce in that regard. Good luck.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (18/10/07 01:41 AM)

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Tatume
.400 member


Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA
Re: Double Slug Gun Questions?? *DELETED* [Re: DarylS]
      #87247 - 16/10/07 09:58 PM

Post deleted by Tatume

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Rusty_Marlin
.224 member


Reged: 06/07/07
Posts: 14
Loc: Northern Neck Va.
Re: Double Slug Gun Questions?? [Re: Tatume]
      #87319 - 18/10/07 12:32 AM

I don't know of anyone doing this, but I don't run the circles where I would meet them either.

What I have been kicking around in the back of me head for about a year now is converting a Biakal 12 gage coach gun to fire high preformance Sabot slugs like the Remington or Hornady versions that use modern bullets in Sabots. The coach gun I have has been and still is heavily used for cowboy shooting and in another year or so of steady abuse will go down to to the flats. Rather than put a $300 gun back on face as a cowboy gun I've been thinking about getting a set of 12 gage rifled barrles and re-barrel/re-build it as a dedicated SXS deer rifle. I live in a slugs only area in Virginia, it would probably drive the DNR officer nuts but there's not much he could say, after all the ammo does say "12 Guage" on the head stamp.

As I have all the equipemnt to do this the cost is just materials and time.

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Double Slug Gun Questions?? [Re: Tatume]
      #87322 - 18/10/07 01:44 AM

HA! my mistake - ' (feet) instead of "(inches)-= standard instead of capitals. I've since changed the post. Thanks, Tom for displaying my typing mistake.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Yogi000
.333 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 265
Loc: New York, USA
Re: Double Slug Gun Questions?? [Re: DarylS]
      #90232 - 01/12/07 05:44 AM

I just got back into this forum after a long sabatical. With Daryl's good suggestions and some time and money on my part I have been shooting a double barrel slug gun with success. Even more crazy----At 50 yards I get cloverleaf groups from off the shelf 600 grain Brenneke Black Magic's. Although I ahve tried a ton of slugs, while they are all reasonable I still cannot get any to shoot clover leafs at 50 yards except the BMM Magnums... It double 12 gauge gun is a smooth bore, cylinder / cylinder bore. It has express sights on it, and I feel those are quite important.

I have shot round ball with this same double barrel slug gun and at 50 yards I can put them all within an 6 inch circle reliably but that it is NOT to my satisfaction but still promising. I just need do load up some more round balls and test them using some better methods that I have been taught. Basically my feeling is a 50 yard slug gun with smooth bore is within most anyone's capabilities.

To prove the point I intend to get a cowboy gun and once I ascertain the bore size/choke size, then I will match it to a round ball by either buying or molding up some roundballs that are within a few thousands on the smaller side of that, of course. The trick to loading the round balls (as Daryl coached me on) is to load them in an upside down shotcup, one with the petals caught off. That acts as a carriage, better than a cloth patch I think, to center the ball during its flight out the barrel.

I do not think you need to put rifled barrels on a double barrel shotgun to get an accurate 60 yard or even MORE double slugger. As Daryl has proven, and as I am proving, a smooth bore double barrel can deliver accuracy and devastation. What distances do you need to shoot to? The last deer I got was 30 yards and then deer before that 22 yards... and the other deer I could have had but just watched was at 15 to 20 yards. I do not know about you ,but most deer and game I shoot at are under 60 yards.

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NE450No2
.375 member


Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: Double Slug Gun Questions?? [Re: JusticeTrimble]
      #90299 - 01/12/07 07:22 PM

JT

Chapuis makes a 12ga side by side Slug Gun.

It is regulated for Brennekes [at 50 meters if I remember correctly].
It has iron sights and the ones I have seen here in the states have the rib precut for scope mounts.

I have handled them and they feel nice.

Also I think it is Eurogun Imports that has the "Sabatti Leopard Gun", a 12 ga SXS, but I do not know if they are regulated for slugs.

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Yogi000
.333 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 265
Loc: New York, USA
Re: Double Slug Gun Questions?? [Re: NE450No2]
      #90459 - 04/12/07 04:17 AM

NE--- I researched the Sabatti Leopard Gun... It had just okay quality in my estimation. And hard to find. They supposedly are designed for slugs. After searching throughut the US last year for a double barrel 12 gauge SLUG gun, I ended up buying an Italian guild double barrel slug gun. Silvio Brignoli. MonteCarlo stock. Throws those Brenneke 607 grain slugs into tight little patterns at 50 yards.

I would like to see the chapuis side by side slug gun! What's the price?

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Double Slug Gun Questions?? [Re: Yogi000]
      #90463 - 04/12/07 04:58 AM

Glad to hear of your success, Yogi000. While I prefer solid round balls with BP load duplications in smokeless, the Brenneke loads do sound most interesting.
; While I used undersized .684" balls in my 12 bore double (.725" bores) I have a .722" mould by Jeff Tanner and some ammmo loaded for testing. I think a .730" mould would cast about .728" and they would be better yet, and breech the 600 gr. weight.
: Thanks for noting the shot-cups as they sure smartened up my ammo. I was able to hold in 10" at 100 yards (offhand) which makes for easy moose and elk taking and perhaps 80 yards easily for deer.
; Sights are mot important - you need good sights for sure. I had mounted a 2-1/2x to 8x scope on the rib for testing purposes at well. Having a good sighting system eliminates most sighting errors.
; When I get around to 'sighting' another shotgun, I'll 'google' Express Sights and pick a single leaf sight with point blank standing sight. That will give 2 ranges, 50 yards (point blank) and 100 yards as max. Another method is to have the wide "V" of the rear sight with the 'ears' the proper height for 100 yard elevation. This then uses only a single Express sight for both ranges.
; I do not agree with the idea of greatly reducing one's power by shooting .50 cal. bullets from a .73 calibre gun. Even in the rifled bores, one should experiment with elongated full size projectiles as well as round ball loads. The ball, if of WW metal, will smash both shoulders of a moose - good enough for me.
: Check Lyman #2 or #3 shotshell book for loading data. Anything over about 1,520fps duplicates the heaviest African load for the 12 bore - a full 7 dram (191gr.) charge of black powder. 1,350fps replicates the lighter loads used in Cape guns and lighter shotguns.
; These loads make the very best camp-gun loads for grizzly - better than ANY centrefire of smaller bore. This is for solid projectiles only, be they slug or round ball as hollow projectiles have reduced penetration.
: Enjoy real power.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Yogi000
.333 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 265
Loc: New York, USA
Re: Double Slug Gun Questions?? [Re: DarylS]
      #90464 - 04/12/07 05:11 AM

Hey Daryl--- Thanks for another informative post.

I was in BC earlier this year for a quickie visit. Drove up from Washington State at about 1:30 AM. Had to stop in the middle of the highway twice that night and meander through the herds of elk. During that 2 day visit I saw so many elk, deer, mountain sheep, a bear, a moose... BC has amazing wildlife.

My sisterinlaw owns land in Terrace and wants me to help build her an off-the-grid cabin there. I might exchange it for hunting rights.

Yeah I am holding on to the theory that I can get those round balls (Tanner Mold in .724 dia) to shoot well in my double 12 gauge. Those Brenneke Black Magics in 607 grain are supposed to be .730 in diameter. I guess those rails aswage down so there are no problems scooting down a bore than is smaller in diameter than the .730. I only make mention of them because they shoot so well but they do break up horribly when hitting anything hard. I think a hardened round ball would work even better quite frankly.

I think the solid round ball is still a terrific big game 'slug'.

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Double Slug Gun Questions?? [Re: Yogi000]
      #90522 - 04/12/07 04:13 PM

Just out of curiosity, has anyone tried shoooting slugs, etc. out of an O/U 12 gauge? I would think the O/U configuration would be more likely to place the slugs on the same vertical plane. I don't know about horizontal. At least the axis of recoil of both barrels is directly down the line of sight.

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NE450No2
.375 member


Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: Double Slug Gun Questions?? [Re: xausa]
      #90531 - 04/12/07 06:16 PM

I do not have a current price on the Chapuis slug double, check with J.J. Perodeau at www.champlinarms.com

I have shot slugs in regular side by sides and in over/unders.

Out to say 35 yards or, so all of them have shot good enough to hunt with.

Some shoot good to 55 yards or so, you just need to test the individual shotgun bbls.

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Double Slug Gun Questions?? [Re: xausa]
      #90589 - 05/12/07 03:47 AM

Where a side-by-side will generally converge or diverge, an over-under will normally give elevation convergence or divergence.
; With experimentation of loads, one can sometimes bring the barrels together. Different projectiles, different wad columns and different powders have slightly different recoil impetus and this is what you use to get the loads to regulate. A 3-ring binder is not only usefull but necessary to log all development. Change one thing olny at a time. Cool stull really and as much or more work & certianly more finiky(sometimes) than working up a load for a competition rifle.
; The ultimate, of course, is to have group centres exactly bore axis apart at all ranges, neither converging nor diverging. This happened with my old fluid steel barrreled double, but was probably more luck than good management. It's oh, so rewarding to have developed such powerful and accurate ammo for your 'pelter'.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Yogi000
.333 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 265
Loc: New York, USA
Re: Double Slug Gun Questions?? [Re: DarylS]
      #90600 - 05/12/07 06:06 AM

On this double gun thread I thoughI would throw out a question to those who might have tried this---

I just bought an 18 inch barreled Russell Arms side by side 12 gauge hammer gun. About 50 years old. The owner said it can shoot low brass loads all day long. The gun locks up nice and tight. I was wondering if anyone has done low velocity slug loads that I might be able to shoot out of this.

I was thinking of shooting a light foster slug or even a 20 gauge round ball slug sitting in a plastic carriage to keep it centered during the flight out of the barrel. It is choked full and mod. I thought if I keep the slug at around 7/8th oz and charge it with lower powder or powders made for lower velocity shot shooting I could use this short double barrel gun for deer at 15-35 yards. Or for shooting holes in paper. Any ideas?

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5521
Loc: United States
Re: Double Slug Gun Questions?? [Re: Yogi000]
      #90651 - 05/12/07 01:17 PM

Daryl, I always enjoy your posts!

A question; have you ever used black powder itself for developing loads? I am curious because some of us may be a bit concerned about the pressures of shotgun loads worked up in the absense of pressure-tested loads.

What do you think about using BP itself, and how do you estimate pressures of experimental shotgun loads?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Yogi000
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Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 265
Loc: New York, USA
Re: Double Slug Gun Questions?? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #90698 - 06/12/07 02:03 AM

I can say that I have used modern black powder substitutes to develop loads and find it interesting and very rewarding. I have a couple of smooth and slow twist rifled guns that I have experimented with and have been astonished at the ability to alter and yet control outcomes once you "know the gun". I have not used real black. Yet. I do hope to get into real black powder next spring.

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