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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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JohnTheGreek
.300 member


Reged: 16/11/04
Posts: 167
Loc: Cairo, Egypt
Lancaster 450 No.2
      #86485 - 02/10/07 08:55 PM

Anyone here fondle this rifle yet? Anyone consider it but pass? If so, I'd be curious to know why as I am basically a double rifle illiterate. Yes, it seems pricey but the combo of the oval bore with original case and goodies is quite nice...heck even the PG and longer bbls make it pretty sexy I think. How far out of line is the price here assuming it's in good mechanical shape? Seems this rifle has been for sale for a while.






Charles Lancaster Double Rifle # 12195 circa 1906 Anson and Deely boxlock Treble lock action with side clips and automatic ejectors. 450 No.2 Nitro Express caliber with 3 1/2 inch case. According to John Taylor this caliber is considered a large African caliber equaling the 500 with FT/LBS well above 5000. He recounts a water buffalo hunt where he killed 9 buffalo with 7 shots. The 28 inch barrels have a wide full filed rib with a blade front sight and cover and a three leaf rear sight ( 1 fixed and 2 folding ) marked 100, 200 and 300 yds. The barrels are inscribed CHARLES LANCASTER 11 PANTON ST HAYMARKET LONDON and NON-FOULING SMOOTH OVAL BORE RIFLING. Regulation was done with 480 grain bullet and 80 grain Cordite powder. The semi-pistol grip stock measures 14 7/8 x 1 5/8 x 2 3/8 to its original red Wilson pad. The gun weighs 12 lbs. Cased in its original Lancaster oak and leather case with some accessories and new Westley Richards ammo. The over all condition shows normal Safari hunting wear and tear with 85% blue, trace of case color and wood marking. The service condition is excellent with perfect bores and internal mechanics. According to David Perkins, Owner of maker's archives, this gun was made for Lord Howard de Walden, well known for his extended hunts world-wide and especially in Africa and India. A solid gun with great provenance. $ 18,000

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xausa
.400 member


Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Lancaster 450 No.2 [Re: JohnTheGreek]
      #86500 - 03/10/07 06:17 AM

No, Taylor was not hunting in OZ. The "water buffalo" were of course, Cape Buffalo, as is clear from the notation in his book. But 9 with 7 shots, using solids to score the two doubles, bull and cow, and softs for all the rest, that is really something!

As Taylor pointed out, those 4 1/4" cartridges are hard to resist. If I had the cash to spare, I would be sorely tempted.

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JohnTheGreek
.300 member


Reged: 16/11/04
Posts: 167
Loc: Cairo, Egypt
Re: Lancaster 450 No.2 [Re: xausa]
      #86502 - 03/10/07 07:02 AM

Well, I don't have the cash to spare (just got married) but still think it's a truly sexy bunch of kit pictured above. I'll be damned if even the LOP is right. Back to reality...I seem to recall witnessing doubles routinely selling in "lesser" calibres but superficially similar condition for about this money (or more). That's the purpose of my post....to see if someone knows something about this piece that the rest of us don't. hmmmmmmm.........

Best,

John

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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Lancaster 450 No.2 [Re: JohnTheGreek]
      #86509 - 03/10/07 08:27 AM

They've had it listed for sale for a long time. I have no idea why it hasn't sold, but I've a hunch that it's the oval bores. They're not at all well understood in this day and age.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39883
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Lancaster 450 No.2 [Re: xausa]
      #86529 - 03/10/07 05:00 PM

Quote:

No, Taylor was not hunting in OZ. The "water buffalo" were of course, Cape Buffalo, as is clear from the notation in his book.



Taylor I think did hunt water buffalo in Australia. He visited Australia at least a couple of times. Indeed one of his books was written while staying with fellow hunter John Dawkins on his farm in South Australia.

I can't comment on the specific context of the Taylor comment however.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (03/10/07 05:25 PM)

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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Lancaster 450 No.2 [Re: JohnTheGreek]
      #86564 - 04/10/07 03:43 AM

Just my guess here - we have a brand craze of sorts with some brands being vastly more sought after than others and that, perhaps, is why a Charles Lancaster rifle hasn't sold for some time?

Aren't oval bores the original polygonal rifling?

Good hunting, everyone!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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JohnTheGreek
.300 member


Reged: 16/11/04
Posts: 167
Loc: Cairo, Egypt
Re: Lancaster 450 No.2 [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #86573 - 04/10/07 06:01 AM

I agree that it could be a brand thing. Stamp "Westley Richards" on the same rifle and it might sell in half the time for an extra $5000. Also, I think it could be the oval bore issue which is unfortunate.....or lucky perhaps for the person who might end up buying this rifle. I'd give my right arm to know if the wood is solid, if it's on face, how the bores look, and if it shoots worth a damn. If any of the above are buggered, the price is probably way out of whack (Does it become a $12,000 rifle if it needs restocking or even less?) but if all is well, I'm not so sure that $18K is a nutty price to begin negotiations. All this is in theory of course as I am currently as poor as the proverbial church mouse.

Is it possible that potential purchasers are passing over this rifle because of the slightly longer than normal LOP? Would a buyer say, "no, it doesn't fit me and I don't want to cut a vintage rifle like this?" ??????

Best,

John

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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Lancaster 450 No.2 [Re: JohnTheGreek]
      #86582 - 04/10/07 07:27 AM

No, I don't think it's the name at all. If the gun is as described, the price is in the ball park. The odd bolstered action and the oval bores don't help it though. Kinda heavy, even for a No. 2.

Yes, if it needed to be restocked, that would knock the value down a lot, and an incorrect restock is just as bad. Getting it done right is expensive. The LOP is no issue. Long is easier to sell than short.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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dearmer
.275 member


Reged: 14/10/05
Posts: 63
Loc: Cape Cod, MA
Re: Lancaster 450 No.2 [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #86655 - 05/10/07 10:29 PM

I've handled and shot this rifle. Can't really say for sure why I passed on it just that I did. It does have appeal in a giant, ugly sort of way. What you see is pretty much what you get. The stock appears to be solid. If I remember right there are one or two very small cracks (1/4 inch) comming from the head of the stock. The stock is very thick and heavy. There are some dents in it up by the grip (you can see them in the pix) that I imagine would be tough to fix but the rest is pretty much superficial. The forend does not use a latch but attaches with spring tension (not sure what you call this type of hanger).
The bores really do look great. It is the only set of oval bores I've ever looked down but they looked as new to me. The outside of the barrels are much rougher. No pitting or rust but some good scrapes running the length. Might not need to be restruck but could definately use a re-black.
The gun shot okay. I say okay because the shooting conditions weren't the best and the ammo was very suspect. Ammo was WR as loader by Romey. Rim diameter was so large Trevallion had to lathe turn all the rounds to get them to chamber. This is not a fault of the rifle as vintage Eley and Kynoch chambered fine, just to say that I wouldn't rely on this ammo for accuracy results. I imagine with some work it would shoot fine. Ejectors work and time perfectly.
It is heavy!
The only thing not stated in the description (but relayed to me before I went to see the rifle) is that it was built as a self opener and the mechanism was later removed. The self opening mechanism was built into the action flats and a poor weld (I think it was a weld) used to fill in the void. Likely functional but not all that pretty. Don't know for sure but I would guess this takes it out of proof as well.
I may be able to answer some other questions if you have any. Feel free to ask. FWIW I'd say it's worth a look if you want an inexpensive ejector gun and don't mind the weight.

Josh

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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Lancaster 450 No.2 [Re: dearmer]
      #86676 - 06/10/07 06:52 AM

I can understand why they removed the self-opening feature. A heavy double nitro express with ejectors is no place for it.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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JohnTheGreek
.300 member


Reged: 16/11/04
Posts: 167
Loc: Cairo, Egypt
Re: Lancaster 450 No.2 [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #86678 - 06/10/07 07:28 AM

Wow, great information from dearmer! With the stock cracks and welding job, we may have an explanation for the lack of a sale at $18K I suspect. Cosmetic dings and such are one thing but the beginnings of structural problems would sure turn me off quickly. Add to that what sounds like a hack job of dealing with the self opener mechanism and it would probably be a "no go" for most eh!

John

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