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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder

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Tatume
.400 member


Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA
Round ball alloy
      #85203 - 06/09/07 02:04 AM

Hello Folks,

I've been wondering why only pure lead is recommended for patched round balls. I know they will take the weave of the patch on loading and provide slightly improved accuracy as a result of being gripped tightly. On the other hand, would a wheel-weight ball give slightly better performance on game, provided accuracy was sufficient? I've asked one gunsmith who's building a rifle for me, and I'd like to hear other opinions as well.

Thanks, Tom


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DarylSModerator
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27594
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Round ball alloy [Re: Tatume]
      #85219 - 06/09/07 01:02 PM

We have found WW balls will work well down to .54 calibre in paper ctgs. in a slow rifled bore. I used them exclusivley in my 14 bore gun, but only with paper ctgs.
: Pure lead allows a much tighter ball patch combination as pure lead can 'move' as the land presses the patch into it on the lands. This lead movement helps also to tighten the grip in the grooves by expanding the diameter of the ball slightly to help fill.
: WW balls are too hard to allow the metal to move and thus will not allow loads of the higher pressure ranges. In the 14 bore, I could use no more than 82gr. 2F with a patched WW ball, as higher charges necessitated thicker patching to withstand the higher pressure and the WW ball could not be laoded with the thicker patching. It is possible that a greatly reduced diameter WW ball, coupled with a vdery much thicker patch would work. Too, I coul dhav eused a wad of some material behind the thinnly patched WW ball to prevent the powder gases from cutting the patch. I don't load that way, so WW balls were OUT.
; In the smaller calibres, pressures with normal loads are much higher than they are in the larger bores, necessitating tigher and tigher ball/patch combinations.
; For expample, in my 40 flinter match rifle, with it's .398 bore and .418 groove diameter, I use a ball that measures .400" with a .019" thick denim patch. This load, loads easily, however if the ball was not pure, you'd never get it down with any patch as the lead will not move easily enough. Even my normal plinking and deer load in the .450 barrel of a .445" ball and .018" patch would be impossible to load if a WW ball was used. A thinner patch merely blows and burns up.
; To illustrate the higher pressures as the bore sizes decrease, the working laods for both the .40 and .45 run around the 15,000 lup to 18,000 lup range, while the 14 bore runs only around 7,000LUP or 8,000 LUP with it's hunting loads of 165gr. charges, yet it's still to high for WW balls and cloth patches.
: The ctgs. worked with WW balls becasue the excess psper wadded up beneath the ball sealed the gasses beneath the ball and the thightness of the load spun the ball properly. We've not tried them smaller than .54 due to pressure rise in the smaller bores. They may work as smal as .50 - experimentation is all that's necessary to find out. Of course, everyone has their own criteria of what constitutes acceptable accuracy. Mine is quite defined, definite and not readily achieved with haphazzard loading - it also requires pure lead balls. Others are happy to hit the paper. Much room in between.
; I've not seen .50" to .680" balls of pure lead fail to penetrate on large moose due to over expansion, so only see a need for hard balls for dangerous game and for breaking large bones. A .50 or .54 is too small for that, even on our larger deer. A pure lead .735 RB(600gr.) from a .75 calibre ML will exit a moose with about any load form 140gr. upwards & form most angles. Many high velocity modern magnums cannot boast that penetraion.
; Again, I rant on - sorry.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Dphariss
.300 member


Reged: 18/04/06
Posts: 130
Loc: Montana
Re: Round ball alloy [Re: Tatume]
      #85746 - 16/09/07 12:44 PM

Quote:

Hello Folks,

I've been wondering why only pure lead is recommended for patched round balls. I know they will take the weave of the patch on loading and provide slightly improved accuracy as a result of being gripped tightly. On the other hand, would a wheel-weight ball give slightly better performance on game, provided accuracy was sufficient? I've asked one gunsmith who's building a rifle for me, and I'd like to hear other opinions as well.

Thanks, Tom



It goes back to the days of wide lands and narrow grooves. Hard lead is very difficult to load in this rifling form.
Green Mountain barrels with their narrow lands will allow harder lead to be started much easier.
I have a 16 bore barrel with narrow lands that shoots lead or WW interchangably. Its a .672-.6725" bore with 8 wide grooves .008" deep and will load a .662 WW ball easily with a .012 linen patch and it shoots as well as lead with a .662 and .022 cotton ticking patch or a .672 lead with a .012" linen. The 672 from hard WW with linen patch will not start without extreme effort no "crush". Did not fully start this combo.
This barrel is not very accurate with any combination though and is going back to its maker for a inspection. But historically hard lead works well if the rifling form is suitable.
Wide lands and narrow grooves will not work well with hard balls. To much tough bullet metal to squish. A hard ball will enhance penetration on tougher animals. Not really needed for deer size or most black bear if the ball size is adequate.
Historically using soft lead on large/tough animals is a mistake, especially African/Indian heavies.
Some years ago Turner Kirkland (Founder of Dixie Gunworks) tried to shoot an African Elephant with a 4 bore using soft lead balls. Penetration was only about 24" with massive expansion. Had he done his homework he would have known the old time heavy game hunters hardened the balls. Had he done this it is doubtful the PH would have had to finish the animal which Turner shot twice.
With hardened balls a 10 bore will suffice for lung shots on African Elephant. See John Taylor's "Pondoro". A 4 or 5 bore with hard balls will even stop charges according to Samuel Baker.
For animals like deer a 50-54 lead RB will give all the penetration needed. For elk sized animals I would rather have a .62 caliber though a 54 will work Ok for lung shots with soft balls. For dangerous North American stuff like Gbear the 16 bore is probably minimum regardless of alloy though I would shoot hardened lead at big bears because you really need sure penetration.

Dan


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DarylSModerator
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27594
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Round ball alloy [Re: Dphariss]
      #85822 - 18/09/07 12:45 AM

In larger bore rifles, paper ctgs. can be used with hard lead balls. These should work almost equally well in wide land, narrow groove barrels as in the wide grooved ones.
: My own 14 bore rifle would not allow over 3 drams of powder to be used with cloth patched WW metal balls, due to the thicker patch needed to seal the bore being too difficult to load. Thicker patches, very useable with soft pure lead balls, were necessary for the hunting and long range accuracy charge of 6 drams of 2F.. WW balls in paper ctgs. shot equally well with 6 drams as patched balls. 1-1/2 MOA for both, same POI as well. They were interchangable.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (22/09/07 03:20 AM)


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