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taw1126
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Loc: Texas
".375 Flanged Express Short" = .375 2-1/2?
      #84469 - 23/08/07 05:42 AM

Saw a rifle for sale listed as ".375 Flanged Express Short". Are these one and the same?

From what I can tell, the .375 2-1/2" case would be very close in size to my .38-72 WCF (essentially a .405 WCF case, very gently necked down to take 270-grain bullets of 0.377" diameter).

Sounds anemic for a double rifle. Could a .375 2-1/2 be (safely) rechambered for the flanged version of the 375 H&H?


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500Nitro
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Re: ".375 Flanged Express Short" = .375 2-1/2? [Re: taw1126]
      #84471 - 23/08/07 06:07 AM



Could a .375 2-1/2 be (safely) rechambered for the flanged version of the 375 H&H?

NO, NO, NO

A number of unscrupolous dealers in the US have done this and I would NOT recommend it.


As a smaller 375 cal, it's not a bad "light double"
but people like to make it into what it isn't.


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400NitroExpress
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Re: ".375 Flanged Express Short" = .375 2-1/2? [Re: taw1126]
      #84473 - 23/08/07 06:16 AM

Quote:

Saw a rifle for sale listed as ".375 Flanged Express Short". Are these one and the same?




That certainly isn't a correct name and reflects a seller that isn't expert on these rifles. Ask about the proof marks. A .375 2 1/2" Flanged will be marked ".375EX" and "Cordite 40 - 270 MAX". A few are marked "300 MAX", or "320 MAX" (the .375 No. 2 load), which are merely variations of that cartridge.

Quote:

From what I can tell, the .375 2-1/2" case would be very close in size to my .38-72 WCF (essentially a .405 WCF case, very gently necked down to take 270-grain bullets of 0.377" diameter).




Not far off. One of Elmer Keith's favorite rifles was a Lancaster in this caliber, and he made cases from .405 Winchester.

Quote:

Sounds anemic for a double rifle.




Absolutely not. That's like saying a .30-06 is anemic for a double rifle.

The .375 2 1/2" Flanged is a really nice DR chambering, and is extremely effective on ordinary game, which is what it was intended for. Holland & Holland introduced it in 1899 as a replacement for the .303 in the Indian market when the latter was banned there in the same year. It wasn't intended for dangerous game, although it was used for it with considerable success. It's a superb cartridge when used as intended and was quite popular. The fact that Elmer liked it so much should tell you something. Such a double is damned hard to beat for elk back in the black timber.

Quote:

Could a .375 2-1/2 be (safely) rechambered for the flanged version of the 375 H&H?




Tragically, many have been, and this conversion usually isn't very successful. The rifles simply aren't built for it. Far better to leave it alone and use it the way that was intended.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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taw1126
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Re: ".375 Flanged Express Short" = .375 2-1/2? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #84477 - 23/08/07 08:43 AM

Quote:



Quote:

Sounds anemic for a double rifle.




Absolutely not. That's like saying a .30-06 is anemic for a double rifle.




Fair enough...I probably took the .38-72 WCF comparison a step too far (a black powder round at ~1,400 fps) and in fairness the .38-72 WCF isn't a bad cartridge for NA big game. I have to remind myself that not all DR's are chambered for elephant cartridges.


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bonanza
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Re: ".375 Flanged Express Short" = .375 2-1/2? [Re: taw1126]
      #84478 - 23/08/07 11:10 AM

No one can fault a man for going for a stopper as his first double, as it may be his only. However, if one can snag a steal on a small of medium pre-war british double as your first, don't let it stop you.

I got a .375 Merkle as my first double, then a Jeffery stopper, then a H&H small bore. You know what, that small bore is just as incredible as the stopper. I can't wait to take a deer or Elk with the small bore.

What is the make of the rifle?


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88MauSporter
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Re: ".375 Flanged Express Short" = .375 2-1/2? [Re: bonanza]
      #84487 - 23/08/07 12:54 PM

I love the .375 Express as a cartridge. I am having a Martini Enfield action / barrel bored out to this cartridge now. I have seen a few mannlicher 1893 actioned guns made up for the .375 express. The rim and cartridge length is close for the original 6.5x53 R and later .303 Enfields, so the sporter conversions were fairly common.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter


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400NitroExpress
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Re: ".375 Flanged Express Short" = .375 2-1/2? [Re: bonanza]
      #84491 - 23/08/07 01:30 PM

Quote:

You know what, that small bore is just as incredible as the stopper. I can't wait to take a deer or Elk with the small bore.




...and whatever you've used previously is likely to get put out to pasture, permanently. Mine sure did. For pigs, whitetail, black bear and elk, I've never found anything as satisfying to hunt with as one of the lighter British medium bore doubles. Everybody wants a large bore double, but don't know what they're missing if they don't get a medium as well.

I'd say your .35 is more of a medium than a small bore.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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taw1126
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Re: ".375 Flanged Express Short" = .375 2-1/2? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #84522 - 24/08/07 01:46 AM

Quote:

What is the make of the rifle?



It's a C&H (which I guess is one strike against it, from what I've read here) that I found out yesterday has been refinished (strike two...my thoughts on refinishing are biased based on many years of collecting Winchesters) and the asking price is about $1,000 more than a brand new 9.3x74R Chapuis.

Quote:

For pigs, whitetail, black bear and elk, I've never found anything as satisfying to hunt with as one of the lighter British medium bore doubles.



That sounds like my sentiments on hunting with pre-war Winchester lever actions (and I'll bet that ballistically the .33 WCF, .35 WCF, .30-'03 GOV'T, .405 WCF, etc. are close to many of the medium-bore DR's). Unfortunately the value of the deluxe models I've been hunting with for the last decade or so has gone sky-high and I'm no longer comfortable taking the risk of permanently damaging them. A double rifle looks like a fun substitute for open-sight hunting, just need to find the right one.


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bonanza
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Re: ".375 Flanged Express Short" = .375 2-1/2? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #84530 - 24/08/07 02:27 AM

"I'd say your .35 is more of a medium than a small bore. "

True, but it did start life as a .303 and is quite petite.


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bonanza
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Re: ".375 Flanged Express Short" = .375 2-1/2? [Re: taw1126]
      #84532 - 24/08/07 02:32 AM

I know which one you are talking about. It's on GA. I think that ain't a bad buy. A British DR is a British DR. If it is mechanical sound and shoots well, I think this is worth viewing at the least.

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400NitroExpress
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Re: ".375 Flanged Express Short" = .375 2-1/2? [Re: taw1126]
      #84541 - 24/08/07 03:22 AM

Quote:

I found out yesterday has been refinished (strike two...my thoughts on refinishing are biased based on many years of collecting Winchesters)




British doubles aren't Winchesters or Colts. Correctly done, refinishing doesn't impact their value much. These are handmade guns that were usually periodically returned to the makers for maintenance, which included seeing to a worn finish when needed. Poorly done, it kills 'em as dead as it does a collector grade Winchester. Sometimes the damage from an incorrect refinish can be corrected, and sometimes it can't. The key is knowing what "correctly done" means.

Quote:

I'll bet that ballistically the .33 WCF, .35 WCF, .30-'03 GOV'T, .405 WCF, etc. are close to many of the medium-bore DR's




Most of the British mediums use longer, heavier for caliber bullets than the Win rounds. While it's usually possible to get 'em to regulate with lighter bullets, I've never seen the need. The long, heavy bullets are part of why they're so much more effective than paper ballistics might make you think. Penetration and knock-down of a 300 grain .366" RN soft at 1950 fps is impressive.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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taw1126
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Re: ".375 Flanged Express Short" = .375 2-1/2? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #84549 - 24/08/07 06:54 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I found out yesterday has been refinished (strike two...my thoughts on refinishing are biased based on many years of collecting Winchesters)




British doubles aren't Winchesters or Colts. Correctly done, refinishing doesn't impact their value much.




I've been down this road before, and I don't like refinished guns. Actually, I'd be more correct in saying "I don't like restored guns" and "I can't stand refinished guns". I'm not making any references to market value...to me, guns with 99% original bone & charcoal case colors are beautiful to look at and a real joy to encounter. Guns that had 25% smokey, faded case colors that have been polished, recased, reblued (or reblacked, if you prefer) lack character in my opinion.

Like I said, I've gone down this road with some higher grade L.C. Smith shotguns, Winchesters, Marlins, and Colts...and I've never been able to keep a gun after having it restored (we're talking quality work, including three guns done by the wonderfully talented people at Turnbull's). It steals a gun's soul, as far as I'm concerned.

I've also had a couple of factory refinished Winchesters (factory jobs documented on the guns and in the form of R&R work numbers) and have kept one only because it had special-order stock dimensions and extra-length barrel.

Poorly done work is a real travesty and a whole 'nother story.

Apologies for the digression.


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400NitroExpress
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Re: ".375 Flanged Express Short" = .375 2-1/2? [Re: taw1126]
      #84616 - 25/08/07 08:53 AM

Quote:

I've been down this road before, and I don't like refinished guns. Actually, I'd be more correct in saying "I don't like restored guns" and "I can't stand refinished guns". I'm not making any references to market value...to me, guns with 99% original bone & charcoal case colors are beautiful to look at and a real joy to encounter. Guns that had 25% smokey, faded case colors that have been polished, recased, reblued (or reblacked, if you prefer) lack character in my opinion.




I've heard this one a thousand times before, and always from Americans.

I think you have some study ahead before you're ready for a British gun. Again, British doubles aren't Winchesters, Colts, Marlins, LCs, Lefevers, or any other cheap, mass produced American gun. The uniquely American mental aberration called "Colt/Winchester Psychosis", which you have come by honestly, simply can't be applied to British guns because they're so totally different.

I have a gun that is probably one you would like. It's been meticulously maintained, but has hunted quite a bit. Black is maybe 75%, case colors are 40%, vivid 100% on the top tang and table. Metal is perfect, with no discoloration from corrosion anywhere, let alone pitting. Ejectorwork and lockwork look like the day it was made and it has excellent bores.

I bought it in that condition many years ago and, like you, I like the character, and I hunt a lot with it. It needs refinishing, but I'll probably never do it. Has it already been refinished? It's 80 years old and British, so chances are fair to middlin' that it has. That's just the way it was done.

For what that boxlock cost in the 20's, you could have bought a new car and had enough change left over for a nice trip. For that reason they were expected to last, and refinishing when needed was part of REGULAR maintenance. At the same time, the quality standard of the British version of "refinishing" was never done in the US, as it would have cost more than a mass produced American gun cost to replace. What I meant by correct vs poor with respect to British guns is that correct means that the original maker probably won't be able to detect it absent wear that refinishing doesn't alter, such as visible bore wear. Keeping in mind that a solid 70+% of the British DRs on the market today were made before WWI, most have been correctly refinished at one time or another, but some haven't. Aside from the exception mentioned, Americans that think they can tell the difference are kidding themselves.

I recently handled a Purdey "best" SLE from the '20s that I actually did assume was in the midst of being refinished. The barrel black was worn through in places, as was that on the guard tang, and the wood, while nice, had a few work marks. The case colors were intense, stunning, and 100%, so I assumed that it had been sent out for re-color, and was now back for re-black and a light refinish of the wood. I think 100% of American "experts" would have instantly branded it as a re-case. It turned out that the original owner had used the gun, but was killed in WWII. The gun had been in storage since then, and the family had just sold it. The lacquer on the action and fore-end iron had degraded and was flaking badly, but had done it's job and the original colors were perfect. The gunmaker had simply removed the old lacquer and applied fresh.

If you "can't stand" refinished guns, you might want to give the British guns a wide berth, unless you're able to buy new.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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bonanza
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Re: ".375 Flanged Express Short" = .375 2-1/2? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #84617 - 25/08/07 11:01 AM

400,

I know you are often criticized for telling it like it is, but on whole you know you guns better than I know my thumb. I can't agree more strongly with you on this subject. An original 1880 Winchester is unique and best left alone. The pre-war British double rile is hand made and is the most valuable in it's best condition. Even if it is re-finished or restored. Why? because a new one is so bloody expensive. We still hunt/shoot with these 100+ year old rifles. They have to work.

Maybe an aircraft analogy is best. We all love to see the glorious WWII aircraft at air shows (Mustangs, B17's, Spitfires, etc.) but would not if they were not restored. A Mustang sold for $10,00 0 in the 1950's as junk - A flying one goes for 2 million today.

B.


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taw1126
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Re: ".375 Flanged Express Short" = .375 2-1/2? [Re: bonanza]
      #84930 - 30/08/07 12:18 PM

Quote:

We still hunt/shoot with these 100+ year old rifles. They have to work.

B.




That's no different than my Winchesters. I've hunted exclusively and fairly extensively with original Winchester lever actions (the vast majority of them original deluxe models) throughout the U.S. for the last decade. In fact, I've been somewhat critical of people who bought/collected these fine guns and then locked them away.

The way values on Winchesters have soared, and with the factory gone, I now cringe to think about the damage that could easily have been done with a slip of a horse, worse than expected weather, lost footing while scrambling after animals in the mountains, etc. This is the first year that I won't be hunting with one, which is one of the reasons I'm now looking at doubles.

400-
More study isn't likely to get me ready for a British double...my feelings on restoration (my terminology for refinishing done correctly) don't have anything to do with value, but rather with the gun's history. I'm well aware of the disparity between typical American gun collectors and the thoughts British makers/users have on getting guns prettied back up every so often, and realize at least conceptually that it doesn't affect. My preference is still for guns that I can tell have been carried and used. The Model '86 I have that is factory refinished is an exception to that; it looks nearly new but I appreciate it's other rarities enough to keep it around.

An aside: I bought a Model 1876 several years ago "sighted, shot, and regulated by Holland & Holland". The guy I bought it from attempted to have it refinished by H&H but they wouldn't do it.

The good news may be that I'm not searching for a British gun; a Merkel, Chapuis, Beretta, etc. would fill my needs for at least the near term. If I ran across an older well-kept British gun I wouldn't stay away from it, and am happy that there's a place (here) I can get some educated opinions & advice.


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