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NONE
.300 member


Reged: 15/12/03
Posts: 110
To scope or not to scope?
      #8393 - 07/02/04 10:00 AM

I have just finished a conversation with MR. Ed Plumber of AHR and he says my new custom .458 Lott I have on order will be ready soon. Now the dilemma is this, I have perfect eye site and shoot iron sites pretty well, I had Ed install a fiber optic hooded front site with the express shallow notch and single flip up rear sites.
I had intended to not scope this rifle as it will be used for elephant and buff only and I personally prefer my shots under 100 yards really closer to 50 yards as shooting a buff at 100-200 yards takes some of the sport out of it for me personally.

My question is should I install a scope on the off chance that 50" beast walks out at 200+ or would anyone have another reason to scope this rifle or stick with my better judgment and not drill holes in my new DG rifle?

I simply like the good looks of a open sited big boar and of course prefer opens up close but this rifle was built to be used and practicality is job number one, so any suggestions?

James F. Nixon III

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ThomasEdwards
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Re: To scope or not to scope? [Re: NONE]
      #8395 - 07/02/04 10:48 AM

...african-hunter.com has some good articles discussing the question of whether or not to scope a dgr...for <100 yard shots, i would say fixed express sights with 'minute-of-grapefruit' accuracy should be sufficient, especially for larger dg...

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luv2safari
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Re: To scope or not to scope? [Re: ThomasEdwards]
      #8396 - 07/02/04 11:03 AM

NONE,

Your eyes won't be getting any better with age, trust me. I agree about a classic look in a firearm, but there are so many good choices in QD scope mounts that it might be the best way to go. That 50"er at 150-200 yards is just too much to have to turn down because the front sight is twice his size.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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NE450No2
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Re: To scope or not to scope? [Re: luv2safari]
      #8504 - 08/02/04 06:59 PM

I would have a scope fited with QD mounts, then you have the option to use one if you want, or need to.

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atkinson6
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Re: To scope or not to scope? [Re: NE450No2]
      #8654 - 11/02/04 03:00 AM

No, I would not use a scope on a 458 Lott as the Lott will trash about any scope except perhaps the Leupold 2.5X Compact..It has held up very well indeed...I have ruined a lot of scopes on the Lott and the 505 Gibbs..especially if they have a brake on the barrel....Some scopes will last a couple of hundred rounds, others a half a dozen..Most who have actually shot there Lotts enough have figured this out, others will soon find out, and most Lotts sit in the closet except for the ocassional bragging rights when displayed to friends and relitives

I decided on a peep (reciever sight) for these big bores. My thinking was I place dependability first and foremost on a DGR. Ranges are short and the peep has served my well. I like dependability in dogs, horses, wimmen and guns

As far as eyesight goes, thats a crutch, I wear bifocals and have some correction in the top, but it has never bothered me as far as shooting iron sighted rifles..I think most just don't try irons and form oppionions based on what they read....Try them and then make a decision..

I have trashed so many scopes with the Lott that I figure if a scope is going to go bad it will be when Jumbo or Mbogo is looking down my throat...


Bottom line is if you want a scoped DGR, then get a 416, 404 or something of that nature...

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NONE
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Re: To scope or not to scope? [Re: atkinson6]
      #8825 - 12/02/04 10:08 AM

Thanks for all the response. I think I will leave it open sighted as I wanted for now and who knows maybe one day as the eyes go look into it further. Ray makes a good point of durability I assumed modern optics would hold up to the lott. I do intend to use mine if the contract seams fair it will be in Tanzania this OCT.

James F. Nixon III

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JoeR
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Re: To scope or not to scope? [Re: NONE]
      #8828 - 12/02/04 11:09 AM

NONE, I'd say scope it, especially with a study QD mount. Trash scopes are easy to trash, but good scopes are now reliable up to and including the 50 BMG round. The scope is a better system for DG in all but the most experienced hands, especially for a moving target. PH's prefer irons because they use their rifles at very short ranges, if at all. Last time I went to Africa with both a scoped and an iron sighted big bore for DG, the PH looked at the iron sighted one and said, in the words of James Thoroughgood, "let's leave that one alone!" I never shot it. Also, remember that a DG rifle that is capable of being scoped is worth far more than a similar rifle with irons only, double rifles excepted, of course.

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NONE
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Re: To scope or not to scope? [Re: JoeR]
      #8841 - 12/02/04 12:47 PM

What would be the advantage in your eyes to scope the rifle?

I belive that iron sites are far superior in short range situations that is a given, faster site picture and a full field of view (I shoot both eyes open so scopes are not as bad for me as some others who do not) I would want nothing but iron sites at or under 50 yards so QD mounts if I decided to scope would be a must.

My reason for asking the question in the first place was to seek out the advantage a scope might give me for DG. I admit to not knowing much about DG hunting but I could find no advantage in my mind due to my range expectations on a hunt except as stated the trophy at long range that may temp me to take a shot outside my window of wants or the outside possibility of a wounded animal that I lost site of and reappears at distance going away a scope might give me a final chance at a spine shot from a distance I would not normally suspect.

I would very much like any reasons you may have I might have not be thinking of though.

James F. Nixon III

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mickey
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Re: To scope or not to scope? [Re: NONE]
      #8848 - 12/02/04 01:18 PM

NONE

Not all DG situations are charges. I'm sure you are aware that many times being able to pick out a small patch of brown, a wiggle of an ear or a twitch of a tail in thick bush is equally important.

The first Lion I shot was with a 303. It had been wounded by a villager with a homemade Muzzleloader and the local Missionary asked me to go with him to try and sort it out. Not being as aware as I am now about DG I took the 303 SMLE that he handed me and he grabbed his 404 and off we went in his old Peugot.

The Lion was supposed to have retreated into some high grass, about 4 feet, so Paul was driving throught the grass and I was standing on the seat and through the sun roof with the 303 next to the local 'hunter'. We stopped and I started to glass ahead of us and spotted it at the edge of the brush with the binos. Paul could not pick it out with his eyes and neither could the villager. I could just make out half of it's head even though it was less than 40 yards.

Paul told me to go ahead and shoot if I could and he would stand ready if it charged. The 303 had an old scope of some type with dirt inside and I lined up on what I where I thought the brain should be and shot. I drilled it fair and it did not even twitch.

We waited for about 3 days, or so it seemed, but really about 15 minutes and then drove over. It was indeed dead, shot right below the eye. It had a 2" piece of curtain rod stuck into it's side about 4" from the muzzleloader..

In Alaska a scope on your Bear Rifle is mandatory for the same exact reason. If you have a wounded Bear in the Alders it is much easier to kill it from 50 yards with a scope sighted rifle. You can take shots that you can't even see with your naked eyes.

That's why you may want a scope on a DG rifle. A 1x something or a fixed 2 power can be very handy. You also want to be able to take it off.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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JoeR
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Re: To scope or not to scope? [Re: NONE]
      #8852 - 12/02/04 01:29 PM

NONE, there are many advantages to a scope, even at shorter ranges. I suggest you look at John Taylor's book, African Rifles and Cartridges. He wrote this in the infancy of scopes when they were expensive and tempermental at best, and he favored them strongly, not only on moving targets, but stationary ones as well. He writes, "The sole object of mounting a scope is to give better precision in aiming.....I have killed many elephant at ranges between 30 and 60 yards with the aid of scope sights that I'm quite sure I would have not succeeded in killing with any other type of sight...I had to slip my bullet through a tangle of branches and leaves, and the foresight prevented me from seeing what I was doing." A low power scope set on 1.5X allows a very large field of view and allows a much more natural type of shooting in that the crosshairs cover the target without having to align the rear sight with the bead and then position both, in alignment, on the target. Just practice snap shooting at targets with a low power scope and with irons and you will quickly see the scope affords a smoother and more natural presentation in giving a PRECISE shot. Also, if any cats are on the menu, where low light shots are the norm, the scope allows accurate shooting in light where you cannot even see the front sight. Take a low power scope out at night and you'll be amazed how you can still see the crosshairs in very dim light. There are some situations where irons are to be preferred, but the majority of hunting situations on DG are better served by a scope, especially in less experienced hands, not less experienced in shooting, but less experienced in DG hunts. Ask your PH for you upcoming hunt. Betcha he says scope it.

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Holmes
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Re: To scope or not to scope? [Re: JoeR]
      #8861 - 12/02/04 02:42 PM

Finn Aagaard was also a proponent of the low power optical sight on DG rifles. It was his opinion that they were as fast or faster than an open sight rifle.

I cannot give my personal slant on this as I am not an experienced DG hunter. I do love irons but I am finding more and more scopes on my rifles now. Even my big bores.

Ray Atkinson influenced my rifle set-ups with regard to having BOTH types of sights on each rifle. A good scope on quality QD mounts with a good quality set of irons to back it up.

Nearly all my rifles now have this ability. I offer my thanks to Ray for his wisdom and the dramatic depletion of funds in my checking account

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NE450No2
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Re: To scope or not to scope? [Re: NONE]
      #8871 - 12/02/04 05:18 PM

None
Call Leupold and talk to them about a scope for the 458 LOTT. They will probably recommend one of their SHOTGUN scopes. That is what they recommended to one of my buddies that has "trashed" a couple of 1.5x5's on a 416. After a long discussion with him I am not sure if it was the recoil or the "ride" on his 4 wheeler that did the scopes in. However the SHOTGUN scope did not break when used under the same conditions.

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NONE
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Re: To scope or not to scope? [Re: mickey]
      #8902 - 13/02/04 07:57 AM

Very good responses and reasons I had not though of, thank you all. This is the reason I asked, Mickey's lion incounter is something I had not considered and I have not hunted in terrain such as is described in Africa by others(though the jungles of South America are very thick as well)

I have always felt at close range I was at a disadvantage with optics on a long gun and the limited field of view that comes along with most of them, things tend to bounce around and the target gets lost easily. I have no experience with the low power hunting scopes though and it sounds as they would be close to my 50mm red dots and halo site's on handguns, which are very fast and allow for a full field of view.

I would assume the Tally QD and Leupold fixed 2X would be a fair setup? I prefer the Swarovski glass its on my plains game rifle and my spotting glasses I will be bringing, is the Leupold the better choice for a heavy recoiling rifle?

Also it seams to me trying to remove a scope would be dangerous while in a bad situation requiring you to look down and remove it and I would not think you would ever have time? In what situation would you want the scope removed ahead of time, only on a follow up hoping the game goes away from you on a less then perfect shot up front? In other words why QD rings if the scope is the way to go on DG?

Don't misunderstand my questions, I am not disputing it may be the way to go I am just trying to fully understand how others use a QD mounted scope in these situations.

Mickey, When did the state of Alaska implement a law requiring scoped rifles for bear? I have hunted Alaska on four occasions for bear (and a few for sheep) and killed one each trip all with a gost ring and post custom Marlin 450, I may simply not have been aware of the law but this was with three different guides one on Kodiak island and two others outside of Denali park on the Lazy J bar O ranch and have not heard this till now, the last time I was there hunting bear was 2000.

James F. Nixon III

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atkinson6
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Re: To scope or not to scope? [Re: NE450No2]
      #8903 - 13/02/04 08:08 AM

JoeR,
Once again we clash I have personally trashed a box of fine expensive scopes on the 458 Lott and larger calibers, as have all those who have actually shot them considerably..A scope will last from 6 to 250 rounds on a Lott and if its has a muzzle brake then it won't normally last that long....The one exception just may be the Leupold 2.5 Compact as the adjustments have been set under the turrets and they seem to take the recoil, at least I was not been able to trash that little bugger so far and I shot it perhaps 350 times or more before I sold the rifle.......

I suggest everyone read Rifle Magazine #135, The 458 Lott, by G. Sitton with comments by David Miller of scope destruction on that caliber...My findings coincide with theirs...

I have used the Lott a good deal on Cape Buffalo, but I finally opted for a receiver or peep sight as that's about as far as its shoots anyway, about 200 yards is max and a peep or a V is fine up to 200 yards on Buffalo IMO.....I always figure what Murphey is up to and make allowances for that...

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mickey
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Re: To scope or not to scope? [Re: NONE]
      #8941 - 13/02/04 12:17 PM

NONE

I'm sorry I wasn't clear enough regarding the scope for a Bear rifle.. It is not mandated by law but by conditions on most Brown Bear ranges. Nothing is always, but most Brown Bear, when wounded, head for the thickets and the Alder. That is where they become very dangerous and a scope can be of immeasurable value. Not all, not many, Bears are shot completely in the open at open site ranges.

The guide will probably have open sites on his rifle as it will be needed for close work. Although on another forum there is a big argument about the guides being required to shoot at every Bear that their client shoots at.

QD attachments would be mandatory on any scoped DG rifle and once off a scope would stay off. Nothing to screw around with.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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luv2safari
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Re: To scope or not to scope? [Re: NONE]
      #8964 - 13/02/04 03:50 PM

NONE,

Swaro are great glass, but they need a lesson in eye relief. Leupold learned that lesson many years ago, and it helped make them the big guy on the block...in the USA...

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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cr500
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Re: To scope or not to scope? [Re: NONE]
      #9274 - 17/02/04 08:21 PM

How about my choice. A 458 Lott on a Brno action with the push button pop up rear peep sight as well as the standard leaf sights. Then mount a 2.5x leupold with QR rings.This would have most bases covered.

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scrollcutter
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Re: To scope or not to scope? [Re: cr500]
      #9541 - 20/02/04 02:36 AM

The one thing nobody ever talks about with quick detach scope mounts is stock design.

If the stock is set up for a scope, then the rifle hammers the crap out of you cheek bone (especially with the hard kickers).

If it is set up for irons, your head is waving in the breeze and you are susceptible to being drilled by the scope.

One alternative is to build the stock for a scope with slightly more drop in the butt than usual, and install tall sights.

--------------------
Roger Kehr
Kehr Engraving Company
Kehrengraving@comcast.net

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atkinson6
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Re: To scope or not to scope? [Re: scrollcutter]
      #9580 - 20/02/04 08:54 AM

Roger,
I grew up with the low comb M-70 with irons, then along came Weaver and we all mounted scopes on them and never looked back...

This phenomenom is only in the mind of custom stock makers and folks that have accepted that therory I think, because all my rifles are built for irons and they all have low power scopes in Talley R&Bs...My head does not flop in the wind when I shoot a scope, but then perhaps I just don't know any better, but for that I am gratefull... I merely lift my eye level about a quarter of an inch and it does not effect my shooting at all...All the gun nuts that shoot my rifles scoped never even realize it has a low comb...the opposite is not true however with a rifle stocked for scope one cannot get down on the irons unless they are built up extremely high in which case the interfere with the scope in most cases and look like crap...

Add to the above that I would not want a dangerous game rifle that could not be readily adapted to iron sights, so that is my solution to the problem that really never existed in the first place with me....

I would bet money with any honest man that if he fired a group with a scope stocked rifle and a scope sighted low comb gun off hand at 100 yards and over a bench at 200 yards that he would not notice any difference in the size of his groups.

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NE450No2
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Re: To scope or not to scope? [Re: atkinson6]
      #9625 - 20/02/04 05:28 PM

Ray I have found your last post here to be true and correct.
Before I got my doubles I had only killed 2 deer with Iron sighted rifles. When I first started hunting with my iron sighted doubles I simply did not have the confidence in iron sights that I had with a scope. After using them for a while now, on many occasions I will remove the scope from my 9,3x74R double and use the iron sights because in many situations I PREFER the iron sights. For example my black bear over bait in Idaho.
It is all a matter of using iron sights enough to have confidence in them.

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Bigfive
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Re: To scope or not to scope? [Re: NE450No2]
      #9627 - 20/02/04 05:39 PM

If you intend only huning DG with the rifle leave it open but if you want to hunt other species with it think about a scope.
All my rifles are scoped with a wide range of different scopes Schmid Und Bender Tasco Lynx etc.
But my 460WBY is open and I'll keep it that way otherwise I must get a good docter to remove the scope out of my forehead

--------------------
"Hunting is a way of life"
Bigfive,South Africa

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AKA
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Re: To scope or not to scope? [Re: Bigfive]
      #9764 - 21/02/04 10:21 PM

Brand new here. This was an excellent topic. I have a weatherby
378 with open sights. I'm going on my first hunt next year. I will be going after buff and the "scope or not to scope" question has been on my mind quite alot. Right now I'm leaning to go with the open sights. In zimbabwe what would be the average yards that a guide will take you to for buff? Everything i have read give me the idea that it less than 100 yards. Thanks for your help.

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Bigfive
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Re: To scope or not to scope? [Re: AKA]
      #9930 - 23/02/04 09:01 PM

In Zim you longest shot will probably be 200m but if you a very good ph it will be 100m.Leave the bloody thing open and take it as it comes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

--------------------
"Hunting is a way of life"
Bigfive,South Africa

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atkinson6
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Re: To scope or not to scope? [Re: Bigfive]
      #10579 - 02/03/04 07:32 AM

The Receiver sight (peep) is always a good compromise and it will give you a 300 yard gun...I like it better than a shallow V, but I do like the shallow V as my second and close choice...

For DG a peep is the answer on the really big bores like 458 Lott an up..I like them with a sourdough post, I get my posts for NECG...or I have a few old Redfields rat holes away...

Another good option for a rear sigh is a deep V sight used in coordination with a post and sighted in with the post at the top level of the V...This works wonderfully on dangerous game and it quick and simular to a peep in quickness and accuracy...

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