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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing

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EDELWEISS
.375 member


Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 608
Loc: Gettysburg
A different attempt
      #83889 - 12/08/07 01:40 AM

Im trying a different tact for my project. First let me say that I am mechanically trained to know which "thumb to hit when hanging a picture for my wife". Nevertheless that hasnt stopped me from scheeeeeming about building or rather having built a DR. Awhile back I bought one of the Bakail Coach guns and added two barrel inserts for 30-30 Win.

The inserts slide in from the rear and have a fitting for the original extractor, they extend beyond the shotgun barrels and have two different size "wedges" for "reg-u-guessing". Finally a knurled nut secures the insert inplace. The gun can be setup with two rifle barrels (45-70 is also available), or just one as in a "Cape gun"; but the barrel nut extends about 1/2" beyound the SG barrels and looks even more "odd" as a single than (admittedly still) in twins.

To make matters worse the system is only available for the 20' Coach guns. Now I suppose there were many DR's made with short barrels; but it just dosent "look" right to me. Sooooo, I started thinking about improvements on the theory.

I discovered Mace.com barrel inserts and ordered a set in 45-70. I believe I paid $90.oo a piece for two 18inch inserts for a 12 gauge SxS that I had in mind. It just happened to be a Bakail with 28in barrels. Here in the "Peoples Republik of Maryland" its considered major gunsmithing to mount and boresight a scope. I was able to get the barrels shortened to 24inches and have a set of generic express sights mounted on the existing rib.

The Mace inserts have no provision for extraction. In fact the SG extractor actually "lifts" the inserts, as they are rimmed like a 12ga shell. Never being the one to let reality hold me back, I shelved the project and scheeemed some more till I could find a smith crazy enough to take on the project. My thoughts turned to other "master pieces", then I saw a listing on one of the auction sights for an NEF Buffalo Classic rechambered from 45-70 to 45-120. About the same time a found the Gun Digest article about converting the Pedersoli DR to 45-120(3 1/4").

I ended up buying the converted Buffalo Classic and had some further custom done work done. The smith was not only willing to listen to my ideas; but his work from scratch when he made mounts for a long brass scope was Fantastic! During the Buffalo Classic work we talked a length about my DR plans.

Our plan for testing the theory, is to make smooth bore barrel extentions for the inserts to fit the SG barrels and a better regulation system without large knurled nuts extending. We agreed smooth bore extentions would avoid any problems with mismatched rifiling. He is going the reshape and "bush" the fireing pins for rifle primers.

Im undecided on 45-70 vs 45-120 but in either version I'll likely limit loads to BP levels. The 45-120 has the advantage of atleast being able to shoot 45-70 with a long chamber jump.

There are many more details that Im sure Im leaving out; but Im VERY open to suggestions.

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If it's not custom, it's just borrowed


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Bramble
.375 member


Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: A different attempt [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #83914 - 12/08/07 09:12 AM

From what I can see from the drawings and photos of the Baikial 45-70 double rifle (marked in the states as spartan?) It is built on their 12 gauge s/s action. If you contact the importers they might be able to get you a bare barrel set that will just fall into place on your action. In my experience with Biaikals they are rough as a badgers arse but the critical tollerences are very good, because they do almost no hand fitting. You could run a 45-100 reamer in at your own risk. IMHO this will work out cheeper and they will extract/eject. I personally would not take the effort to bush the firing pins for 45-70 or 100 as they are not high pressure rounds. Might polish the pin tips to make sure there are no burrs and leave it at that.
They have a rep for being as tough as hell, I don't know anybody that has broken a Biaikal and hundreds are used here as real knock about keepers guns, never cleaned, oiled etc.

Regards


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Rustyzipper
.275 member


Reged: 20/10/03
Posts: 83
Loc: North of the Zambezi, in Miser...
Re: A different attempt [Re: Bramble]
      #83972 - 13/08/07 04:59 AM

Could it be that a 45-120 can be loaded to 45-70 performance at lower pressures? It seems logical. I have never tried that. I have owned several 45-70s and they seem to be a good idea in a double. Anything in North America with a double tap. There are reasons the Bison almost disappeared. 45-70 was one of them. And at BP velocities! I think a 45-70 in one barrel and the 12ga with slug beside it sounds workable. Back to the Cape gun. Keep on kickin'. Rustyzipper

--------------------
NMLRA Life, NRA Annual,DRSS, .......


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EDELWEISS
.375 member


Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 608
Loc: Gettysburg
Re: A different attempt [Re: Rustyzipper]
      #83973 - 13/08/07 05:24 AM

Thanks guys, Im deffinetly at stage where I need suggestions and support. Regarding the fireing pins, ultimately I'll let the smith decide but I just figured it was a good idea, having read all the other build reports. Honestly I never thought about the 45-70 not needing it done because of lower pressures.

Reference the 45-120 v 45-70 issue, Im leaning towards the 120 just because of the big case. Im not ever likely to make it to Africa except in my dreams but it's long 3 1/4 inch case just looks cool stuck between the fingers of my off hand, and I'll admit thats part of the reason I want a Double Rifle.

While Im confessing, I'll also admit Ive got more than one Bakail for exactly those same reasons Bramble suggested. They arent the girl you want to take to the prom but they sure are fine in the field. Frankly Im not sure Id be willing to cut up a fine SG for the risk of a working DR. As an example, the last Browing BSS I saw was going for over $1000 used and when I think about how much Id want to invest to do the project the "right way", I think Id rather save my pennies for a factory DR will no frills.

My biggest concern with this project is by "sleeving" the barrels they wont be as trim as a true DR. Thats why I chose the 45-70, it was as big as the manufacturer made. If the Idea works Ive been scheeeming about a 58 caliber minie ball in a 28ga brass case. With a little bit of a patch its pretty snug. Then its only a matter of having 58 caliber barrels turned to fit inside a 12ga barrel and chambered for the "new" 577 round???

Now do you see where my mind is going?

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26999
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: A different attempt [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #83992 - 13/08/07 10:20 AM

The 3-1/4" case was a Winchester case, copied from the Engoish .450 BPExpress round, not a Sharps case, as Sharps never chambered a 3-1/4" length straight case in any calibre.
; Sharps did chamber what was called a .45-120, but it was the 2 7/8" case, also loaded with 100gr and 110gr. powder generally depending on whether the bullet was grooved and lubed, or paper patched and what weight it carried.
: The modern long 3-1/4" case is sometimes difficult to get to shoot well with black powder. I suppose it depends on what your accuracy requirements are. With smokeless powders, it is easier, but there is a lot of waisted space that must be filled with something. Air doesn't work well and can cause other problems as can some types of fillers.
: The 2.4" (.45/90) case will be much easier to get to shoot well than any longer case and indeed, the standard .45/70 case of 2.1" is quite enough at under 24,000psi for any game this side of the Atlantic.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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EDELWEISS
.375 member


Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 608
Loc: Gettysburg
Re: A different attempt [Re: DarylS]
      #84135 - 17/08/07 06:01 AM

I talked to the smith today. He agrees that there is no real point in using anything longer than 45-70 for North America, especially the lower 48, which is where I'll be using it. He thinks it should be fine for factory loadings in the "Marlin" range, so we're going to work towards using the "leverevolution" rounds.

Regarding the fireing pins, he agreed that bushing may not be necessary, but he is still undecided and will begin with polishing as discussed.

He also was not satisfied with the sights as I had previously had installed directly on the SG rib. He suggested a Ruger Quarter Rib for future use of a scope, since it is already cut for rings.

I'll post more as the work progresses. Any more suggestions would be appreciated to keep me on track.

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed


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Smokinjoe
.275 member


Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 53
Loc: USA
Re: A different attempt [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #84138 - 17/08/07 09:16 AM

Re: The "Marlin" range, the Baikal/Spartan double in .45-70 is rated for 28000 cup

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"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember it or overthrow it."-- Abraham Lincoln


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EDELWEISS
.375 member


Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 608
Loc: Gettysburg
Re: A different attempt [Re: Smokinjoe]
      #84184 - 18/08/07 06:04 AM

OK, Im gonna have to plead ignorance on the pressure levels, but I THINK he said 25000??? Like I said Im just the "idea" guy still seeking advice. I'll check with him and post more when I hear more.

Thanks for the info

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed


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Smokinjoe
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Reged: 04/05/05
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Re: A different attempt [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #84198 - 18/08/07 11:20 AM

25 would be OK. Trapdoor loads are usually up to 21000-28000. Marlin loads are usually 30000-40000.

--------------------
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember it or overthrow it."-- Abraham Lincoln


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Bramble
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Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: A different attempt [Re: Smokinjoe]
      #84208 - 18/08/07 03:36 PM

IMHO a Biakal is much stronger than a trapdoor springfield or a Marlin. It should take Marlin loads with ease.

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Smokinjoe
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Reged: 04/05/05
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Loc: USA
Re: A different attempt [Re: Bramble]
      #84227 - 19/08/07 01:39 AM

Maybe so....I'm just quoting the Baikal/Rem Spartan factory at 28000

--------------------
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember it or overthrow it."-- Abraham Lincoln


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Bramble
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Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
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Re: A different attempt [Re: Smokinjoe]
      #84355 - 21/08/07 03:52 PM

That wasent a dig or a criticism, just an opinion from handeling quite a few and rebuilding a 28 guage. Thought there was a lot of good quality steel in the critical areas.
Regards


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Smokinjoe
.275 member


Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 53
Loc: USA
Re: A different attempt [Re: Bramble]
      #84391 - 22/08/07 05:49 AM

I'd like to see success on this one......I've been wanting to chamber one for the .45-90 for years!

--------------------
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember it or overthrow it."-- Abraham Lincoln


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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 608
Loc: Gettysburg
Re: A different attempt [Re: Smokinjoe]
      #84411 - 22/08/07 01:53 PM

I briefly spoke to the smith today. He was on his cell phone and driving, so I didnt want to cause an accident. We didnt get to discuss the pressure issue but I'll check with him the next time.

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed


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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 608
Loc: Gettysburg
Re: A different attempt [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #86270 - 27/09/07 10:38 PM

I spoke to my Smith today. Hes always pleasant and willing to talk about the project; but I wonder how often I should call him? I dont want to be a pest, but I dont want to loose touch either and have him do something I dont want because I wasnt clear in my initial discussion.

As for updates, hes making extractors for the inserts. Thats WAS one of my original concerns with the MACE inserts. They are cut round with no access for even a thumb nail to remove the shells. I suppose thats why they are so affordable initially. In conversations with MACE they suggested that a small dowel could be used on the shorter inserts to remove cases. In any event my Smith was not going to let me HOPE that the fired shells would fall out. He polished the chambers and is fitting extractors to the inserts that work with the original gun.

Unfortunetly as expected the initial regulation had rounds crossing at 10 yards! So its gonna take some regulating. So far theres no signs of any pressure problems. My Smith doesnt see anything to be concerned about. He polished the pins but has decided to delay any taper and bushing unless an issue arises.

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed


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