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Will__Seattle
.224 member


Reged: 12/07/07
Posts: 5
Loc: Seattle, Washington, USA
470 NE questions
      #83119 - 27/07/07 02:44 AM

Okay guys, I finally picked up a double rifle. It is a used Searcy 470 NE. I have been acquiring the necessary reloading components, and I have a friend with extensive reloading experience to walk me through this.

The paperwork from Searcy indicates that the rifle is regulated with 106 grains of IMR 4831, using Jamison brass, Woodleigh 500 grain soft points, and Federal 215 magnum primers for 2150 fps.

So far, I have obtained RCBS dies, Woodleigh 500 grain bullets, Federal primers, and the 500 grain lead bullets from Huntington’s.

Last night, I picked up some Accurate 5744, Reloader 15, and IMR 4831. I also picked up some lower weight 475 bullets, including 400 grain Hornaday and 325 grain Speer.

I am waiting for the 470 shell holder, which should arrive early next week. After that, I think I am good to go.

From having reviewed numerous posts on this site, I have an idea of how to set up some loads for the Woodleigh and 500 grain cast bullets.

The plan is to load the Woodleigh 500 grain SP with Reloader 15 at 84 grains, 85 grains, 86 grains, 87 grains, and 88 grains. It is my understanding that the Federal load is 87 grains of Reloader 15.

I don’t plan to check different loads for the IMR 4831, and will stick with Butch’s load of 106 grains.

Using the 500 grain cast bullets, I will try 45 grains of the 5744, as that load has been posted on several occasions as being a good one with a few different rifles. I will bracket that with loads at 43, 44, 46, and 47 grains of 5744.

Does anyone have any recommendations for a different approach to trying out some of these loads.

I realize that the lower weight bullets, at 325 and 400 grains, may regulate very differently, but I thought I would try some light loads to get acquainted with the recoil of the 470. Does anyone have any experience/suggestions for loads for these bullets. I realize that they are pistol bullets, and I would not use them on any game animal, although it would be interesting to see what they do with ground squirrels, etc…

Can someone comment on what to expect with barrel leading with the use of the 500 grain cast bullets. Would it be a mistake to shoot the Woodleigh bullets after the cast bullets? What do you use to remove the lead?

Also, what is the reputation of Jamison brass? I bought it because that is what Butch used for the regulation load, but should I be buying Norma brass instead?

Sorry guys, I realize there are a lot of questions. Any help would be appreciated.


Will


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Tatume
.400 member


Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA
Re: 470 NE questions [Re: Will__Seattle]
      #83122 - 27/07/07 04:27 AM

> The plan is to load the Woodleigh 500 grain SP with Reloader 15 at 84 grains, 85 grains, 86
> grains, 87 grains, and 88 grains. It is my understanding that the Federal load is 87 grains of
> Reloader 15.
> Using the 500 grain cast bullets, I will try 45 grains of the 5744, as that load has been posted
> on several occasions as being a good one with a few different rifles. I will bracket that with
> loads at 43, 44, 46, and 47 grains of 5744.

If your objective is to obtain safe practice loads, why exceed the recommended charges? For example, if you know what charge Federal is using, I would be very cautious about trying to better it. Also, if your friends have found a certain charge of 5744 to work well, why exceed it? Perhaps I'm just too conservative, but I don't see the point in possibly over-stressing a fine gun with over-loaded practice ammo.


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Will__Seattle
.224 member


Reged: 12/07/07
Posts: 5
Loc: Seattle, Washington, USA
Re: 470 NE questions [Re: Tatume]
      #83137 - 27/07/07 07:57 AM

I appreciate your comments. The reason I mentioned a charge exceeding 87 grains of Reloader 15, is that there have been posted charges here on this forum above that level. With respect to the 5744, it is my understanding that a charge of 45 grains is still quite a light load overall, and that it could be exceeded without any problems. I agree with you about being conservative with reloading. I have no interest in trying to get the hottest load possible.



Will


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Savuti_One_Shot
.300 member


Reged: 24/01/07
Posts: 139
Loc: Florida
Re: 470 NE questions [Re: Will__Seattle]
      #83141 - 27/07/07 08:40 AM

When I pulled the bullet and weighed the charge in a Federal round I got 89.something.
If you use the cordite to RL 15 conversion formula (C x 1.19) 75 gr of cordite would equate to 89.25 of RL15.

Federal can load without fillers since they use a hotter primer (F216?) that's not available to us mortals. When I load with the F215 / RL15 I add 6-7 gr of polyester pillow stuffing to keep the powder against the primer.

For a 1954 WR double I worked up from 85 gr and settled on 90 gr since it regulates perfectly with Woodleigh softs. Use one grain less for solids. Velocity runs 2125 or so.

SOS

--------------------
"I've this damned cannon." - Robert Wilson


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clark7781
.375 member


Reged: 28/10/04
Posts: 612
Loc: Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
Re: 470 NE questions [Re: Savuti_One_Shot]
      #83142 - 27/07/07 08:52 AM

First, get yourself a chronograph and do not start developing your own loads until you do that. Hot loads are a big no-no with DRs.

Second, start with a lower recommended powder charge that what you were told, and work up from there, shooting over a chronograph.

When you find a combo that works for you, LOAD UP ON THE SAME LOT OF POWDER THAT YOU DEVELOPED WITH!!!!! Because if you change lots, you will probably have to redevelop a new load for that new lot of powder. I've had to do it, and I'm sure a number of guys had to do it too to get the best groupings.

But get a chrono and make sure you are not going hot - that will potentially cause big problems later with the gun.

--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE


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470evans
.333 member


Reged: 30/03/05
Posts: 278
Loc: Texas, USA
Re: 470 NE questions [Re: clark7781]
      #83151 - 27/07/07 10:37 AM

It's always a good idea to start below where you expect to end. I'd start with 84-85 grs of R-15 and work from there and remember you'll need filler in the R-15 loads.

Definately get a chronograph, best $100-$150 you will spend.

You'll also need to work up a load with IMR4831 as your lot of powder will be different than Butch's. I've had 2-3 gr differences in different lots of the same powder. I now buy an 8lb canister when I have settled on a powder, work up loads again with the 8# and then know I'm safe for a while.

Good luck.

Edited by 470evans (27/07/07 10:48 AM)


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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: 470 NE questions [Re: 470evans]
      #83159 - 27/07/07 01:09 PM

Expect leading.

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Will__Seattle
.224 member


Reged: 12/07/07
Posts: 5
Loc: Seattle, Washington, USA
Re: 470 NE questions [Re: 500grains]
      #83170 - 28/07/07 01:00 AM

Thank you for the information. I will pick up a chronograph. Any recommendations on the best choice to remove the leading?

Also can anyone tell me how many reloads, quality, etc... with the Jamison brass?


Will


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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: 470 NE questions [Re: Will__Seattle]
      #83171 - 28/07/07 01:10 AM

I have scrubbed like hell with Hoppes lead remover.

Try to get hard cast bullets with some tin in them. If they are dropped from the mold into a bucket of water that further hardens them.


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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: 470 NE questions [Re: Will__Seattle]
      #83180 - 28/07/07 05:19 AM

congratulation on your purchase--awesome

I have reloaded for a .470 recently and had great success with 89 grains of RL-15 with a 500 gr woodleigh--Fed. 215 primer--Norma brass--I also use a filler of 5 grs dacron --shoots very well in my double--

Personally I don't think you need to start as low as 84 grains --but hey,,that's just me

I agree you should use a chrono--very helpful in developing a load

Good luck and keep us posted

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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ducota
.275 member


Reged: 27/04/07
Posts: 75
Loc: Portugal
Re: 470 NE questions [Re: Will__Seattle]
      #83335 - 01/08/07 12:46 AM

It´s a shame that I can't compare loads with most of you people, because I only have used French Tubal powders sofar! I'm considering trying American stuff one of these days...
My 470 load:
106 grains of Tubal 7000, 500gr Sol/RNSP woodleighs, CCI 250 primer and Norma brass (plus energetic crimmping) for 2170 f/sec and nice groupings from my Krieghof.
The chronograph is a must to keep it under control and you even find out that factory ammos from Fed. come out at around 1900 f/sec, Kynock a little better and A-Square around 1.400 from the same double


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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: 470 NE questions [Re: Ripp]
      #83344 - 01/08/07 03:16 AM

Quote:

Personally I don't think you need to start as low as 84 grains --but hey,,that's just me




I would.

Consistency of density from lot to lot of the same canister grade powders is a joke on a good day. At other times, they might as well not even be the same powder. Any time a component changes, especially when you have to buy a new lot of the same powder you're already using, REDUCE and work back up over a chronograph. Keep in mind that the short cuts that you can get away with in a bolt rifle are a really bad idea in a double.

The consistent best performer in one of my doubles is IMR 4350. With that rifle, all other components being the same except for an old lot of IMR 4350 vs a new lot (I ran out of the old lot and was having to redevelop with new), I have, on the same day, shooting over the same chrono, had to go from 51.5 grains of the old to 56.5 grains of the new to get the exact same velocity and regulation. Each time I have to work up for a new lot of powder in that rifle, a change of 2 to 3 grains, up or down, is NORMAL.

While I've found Reloder 15 to be more consistent between lots, I've always gotten a change when working back up for a new lot, sometimes several grains.

The usual conversion from the original Cordite charge to RL 15 is usually given as 119%. Despite what some have claimed, I have NOT found this to be a starting load, but a very rough guide to a max load. In 15+ years of using it almost exclusively in large bore doubles, I've never been able to reach 119%.

Earlier this year I worked up with RL 15 in a Holland .500/.465. It and the .470 are both 75 Cordite cartridges - thus both are 75 X 119% = 89.25 grains. I loaded four rounds each with 84, 85, 86, 87, and 88 grains with 480 grain Woodleighs. The 84 grain starting load was hotter than I thought it would be. 85 grains was a good, usuable load. 86 grains was spot on standard velocity as adjusted for barrel length (2100 fps; 2150 is standard in 28" barrels, and this rifle had 26"), with dead solid perfect regulation. 87 grains gave 2150 fps - too hot - and crossed at 50 yards. Since the 88s were clearly going to be too hot, I pulled the bullets and dumped the powder. With this particular lot of RL 15, a charge of 89.25 grains would have been a nasty overload.

I've just heard of another large bore nitro double blown to Hell. It isn't worth it. You don't need more than standard velocity as adjusted for your barrel length - it's worked for 100+ years. Work up over a chronograph with powders known to be suitable - and stop when you reach that velocity.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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butchloc
.300 member


Reged: 18/12/04
Posts: 230
Loc: faribault mn
Re: 470 NE questions [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #83351 - 01/08/07 06:39 AM

another way to prevent some leading is to cast bullets out of straight wheel weights. they are hard

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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: 470 NE questions *DELETED* [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #83356 - 01/08/07 07:15 AM

Post deleted by 400NitroExpress

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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benellisbe
.224 member


Reged: 10/07/07
Posts: 17
Loc: GA
Re: 470 NE questions [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #83729 - 08/08/07 10:30 PM

I noticed you are trying to become aquainted to the recoil of the .470 NE. I have both a .470 and a .500 NE and I fully admit that the recoil is stout, but I personally think the recoil of my Benelli SBE (12 GA) with 3" Magnum buckshot round, or 3 1/2" duck rounds has more recoil. I would recommend shooting a 12 gauge shotgun for several days. After shooting even 2 3/4" birdshot the recoil of the .470 NE will not seem near as stout. Just food for thought, and a heck of a lot cheaper to start off with. More of a hard shove then a brutal kick (as you feel with a bolt action 7mm Rem Mag (Savage). Best of luck and congrats on the DR.

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Will__Seattle
.224 member


Reged: 12/07/07
Posts: 5
Loc: Seattle, Washington, USA
Re: 470 NE questions [Re: benellisbe]
      #83752 - 09/08/07 06:41 AM

I did fire a Searcy 470 NE in the late 90's. I tried several "light" loads that were very manageable. However, I then tried 2 rounds of Federal ammo, off the bench. Admittedly, that was a whole new world of recoil for me. It isn't something I want to do again, until I work up to that level.

I have been shooting a "moderate" handload in a CZ 416 Rigby. I can do 10 rounds of that without any problems while standing. I have not fired any full level 416 R loads. A benched Ruger 375 H&H is not a problem. I think that as long as I build up to the heavier loads, and use a shoulder pad for the benched shots, I should be okay.

I do appreciate everyone's comments. Unfortunately, it will likely be a couple more weeks before I can get out and try the 470.

Will


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475Guy
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Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: 470 NE questions [Re: Will__Seattle]
      #83757 - 09/08/07 08:47 AM

Dude, I don't know how to put this. I'll try. Quit shooting soft loads in your 416 Rigby and get to some real recoil. The more full loads you shoot with the 416, the more you'll be able to shoot the 470. Light loads should be used only after you've been acclimated to full loads and they should be used mainly for quick sight acquisition(snap shooting) and to get that manual of arms into your muscle memory. In the scheme of things, the 470 don't kick that much, try a 577 off the bench and the 470 will feel like a 375.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.


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FireHunter
.224 member


Reged: 11/07/06
Posts: 21
Loc: Southeast Oregon, USA
Re: 470 NE questions [Re: Ripp]
      #83770 - 09/08/07 02:18 PM

Quote:

congratulation on your purchase--awesome

I have reloaded for a .470 recently and had great success with 89 grains of RL-15 with a 500 gr woodleigh--Fed. 215 primer--Norma brass--I also use a filler of 5 grs dacron --shoots very well in my double--

Personally I don't think you need to start as low as 84 grains --but hey,,that's just me

I agree you should use a chrono--very helpful in developing a load

Good luck and keep us posted

Ripp




Agreed on all points. I use the exact load above except with foam filler instead of dacron. Our Norma brass is getting old and starting to seperate we are now using Jamison. Use the same components but 87 grains of RL 15 for shooting Woodleigh solids and they shoot to the same POI.

BTW, this is with a Searcy 470NE.

Shoot a respectable load of RL15 (89 in my case) side-by-side with one of Butch's load of 106 grains of IMR4831 and feel the recoil/blast difference. Night and day! I like the RL15!

--------------------
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!


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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: 470 NE questions [Re: FireHunter]
      #83780 - 09/08/07 09:30 PM

Quote:

Quote:

congratulation on your purchase--awesome

I have reloaded for a .470 recently and had great success with 89 grains of RL-15 with a 500 gr woodleigh--Fed. 215 primer--Norma brass--I also use a filler of 5 grs dacron --shoots very well in my double--

Personally I don't think you need to start as low as 84 grains --but hey,,that's just me

I agree you should use a chrono--very helpful in developing a load

Good luck and keep us posted

Ripp




. Use the same components but 87 grains of RL 15 for shooting Woodleigh solids and they shoot to the same POI.

BTW, this is with a Searcy 470NE.


Have you used the woodleigh solids on game?? If so, how did they preform??

I have never used the woodleigh's but have used Barnes --However I can NOT use them in my older Westley Richards double..

thanks
Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Will__Seattle
.224 member


Reged: 12/07/07
Posts: 5
Loc: Seattle, Washington, USA
Re: 470 NE questions [Re: Ripp]
      #83786 - 10/08/07 01:31 AM

I should have specified that the 416 Rigby belongs to a friend of mine. He uses moderate loads for it, so that is what I can shoot.

I am still not certain about the recommendation to start with heavy 470 loads and then switch to lighter loads. That seems counterintuitive. I do agree that after shooting the 577 off a bench the 470 would seem light.

I did buy several pounds each of the IMR4831 and RL15. I understand that the recoil will be heavier with the IMR, although I must admit that I am not certain why that it. As soon as I confirm that the RL 15 regulates, I will stock up on it and use the IMR for something else.

Will


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FireHunter
.224 member


Reged: 11/07/06
Posts: 21
Loc: Southeast Oregon, USA
Re: 470 NE questions [Re: Will__Seattle]
      #83826 - 10/08/07 12:45 PM

Ripp, I personnaly have not used them on game (yet) but have witnessed the performance on home videos and still pictures. A good friend has a few of them recovered from animals but the far majority just pass on through while leaving a good size wound channel. I tried the barnes solids in this Searcy and they shot just "O.K." for accuracy - not nearly as good as the Woodleighs. The barnes TSX's were literally all over the place which is too bad. The afore-mentioned good friend swears by the TSX's in his .500NE Searcy and just brought back a recovered TSX from his last buffalo just two weeks ago. Perfect performance, 98% weight retention, and traveled nearly the length of the bull on a quartering away shot and destroyed the off-side shoulder. He used nothing but woodleigh's until his recent experiences with the TSX's.

I am T-Minus 27 days until I leave to try the woodleigh solids first hand for the first time ever!

--------------------
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!


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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: 470 NE questions [Re: FireHunter]
      #83837 - 10/08/07 10:26 PM

Firehunter
I am jealous in your soon to be departure.. There is nothing like your "first" safari.. you will never forget it--may there be many more...

I have used the Barnes solids in the .416 bolt gun as I had stated with really good results--I plan to use them again along with A-Frameswhen I head over next May -it is a really deadly combination--however I plan to take my double along as well and want to load some solids for it just in case --I already have the woodliegh softs loaded and they shoot awesome--would really like to catch a hippo out of water with that--plan to use it on buffalo as well..

Good luck on your trip--post some photos when you get back..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: 470 NE questions [Re: Ripp]
      #83845 - 11/08/07 01:26 AM

Shooting Doubles and then reading African hunting threads with pictures is like a sirens song.

Gotta do it!!

Wish I was going back for a month to Africa hunting the big 5(less rhino) + hippo, not just plains game--
oh well, I can shoot my 500 Merkel and start planning for next year!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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