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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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khornet
.224 member


Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 3
If it was british?
      #8257 - 06/02/04 05:27 AM

If the 45/70 was a british cartridge available only in double or expensive magazine rifles.I suspect it would be loudly praised as the ideal african cartridge for anyone concerened about recoil or rifle weight.

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: If it was british? [Re: khornet]
      #8266 - 06/02/04 07:51 AM

K hornet, the 45-70 Gov is a fine old cartridge for the purpose for which it was designed. It was designed for shooting Indians by the cavelry out west, in the late 1800s. As it turned out like all millitary rounds, it was used for hunting of game by the vets after they got out of the army. It is a very good close range round for all North American game. However, all the talk in the world, will not make it into an African BIG GAME cartridge. It simply is not suited to the hunting of things like Cape Buffalo, regardless of what rifle it is chambered in. This is not to say it will not KILL a Cape Buffalo, because it deffinetly will, it just will not do it properly, and reliably enough to be considered a Cape Buffalo cartridge!

The fact that it isn't British, has nothing to do with it! I have several double rifles that are British, and are chambered for british rounds like the 500/450#1 Express that are not considered to be African big game rounds either. Eventhough, this cartridge is chambered in a very fine S/S Westley Richards double rifle, with a lot of engraveing, and the cartridge LOOKS like a fine cartridge for Buffalo hunting, however, it was designed for deer hunting in England, not buffalo in Africa. The 500/450#1 Express is the balistic twin to the 45-70!

I own a few 45-70 rifles, and have owned a lot more, and they are fun to use and hunt with, as long as you use them for what they are best at, you will have a lot of fun shooting, and hunting with them. Wishfull thinking, however, will not make the 45-70 something it isn't, or was ever intended to be!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Dark_Helmet
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA
Re: If it was british? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #8274 - 06/02/04 08:56 AM

if you want to talk american 45s and hunting... there are several reasonable cartridges out there... for instance, the 45-75, which while short lived, was designed to affect a one-shot Bison kill at 400 yards. we had one (1876 win) and sold it for something in the neighborhood of 10-grand IIRC.

then there are the 45 mags, the 45-90 and the 45-120, both would be considered potent enough for buff, but their rarity and the rifles they are typically built in are not exactly up to "buff" standards. if the 45-70 has ANY chance at being considered DG gun it is as a method of throwing a lot of soft-points at big cats in a very short time frame and at closing distances. even then, the BIG bullets desired in such a circumstance are not normally used in the 45-70, at least I don'r remember seeing them loaded that way...

what's the MV and ME on a 45-70 vs. a 375H&H anyway???

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: If it was british? [Re: khornet]
      #8283 - 06/02/04 11:00 AM

If it could push out a 480 gr bullet 500 fps (or more ) faster then it might.



Isn't the .45/70 equivalent to the British .577/.450 and nobody raves about them as dangerous game rifles, even if used with hard cast flat point lead bullets?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Rusty
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Reged: 08/02/03
Posts: 464
Loc: Missouri City, Texas
Re: If it was british? [Re: khornet]
      #8288 - 06/02/04 12:11 PM

Gee I thought we'd ridden this one to ground enough times?

If a person was concerned about recoil and weight he'd have a heavier rifle. Last time I shot my 45/70 Marlin I didn't think it was mild at all. It has poor terminal ballistics performance and that's why it's taking a nap in the back of my gun safe!

Bless the 45/70's heart it was a fine man killer in 1873 when it was adopted as the offical U.S. Government military cartridge. Today, it's just a straight walled hold over black powder round that folks have been trying to make into poor man's big bore! If you want it to perform well you need to load it up to brutal recoil levels in a bolt action rifle to generate enough velocity to overcome the poor bullet design of that .458 bullet.

My old Speer manual says "Because of the high trajectory of its slow-moving buller, the .45-70 is limited to short range hunting with 150 yards about the limit for reliable bullet placement." Let's see it says a 300 grain bullet out of a 1895 Marlin at 2150.

Respectable!
However, Kynoch specs on my 450/400 3 inch launches a 400 grain bullet at 2100. A long, 400 grain .408 bullet that penetrates well. And the recoil is very managable.


You go for that Lever Action, it's your money. But I'd stick to plains game and white-tailed deer, up close.
Just my opine!

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
DRSS

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Crazyquik
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Reged: 21/12/03
Posts: 60
Re: If it was british? [Re: Rusty]
      #8308 - 06/02/04 02:34 PM

I suppose if it were British it'd be the ".450 Nitro Express 2 and One Tenth".

How does the .45-120 compare to the .450 Nitro Express 3 1/4"?

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Dark_Helmet
.333 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA
Re: If it was british? [Re: Crazyquik]
      #8310 - 06/02/04 02:39 PM

the 120 is actually an old black-powder round and I don't know if anyones really don't much of anything with it "smokeless"-wise.

the 45-90 I have seen someone actually use, but it had a 30-inch barrel or something similarly extreme.

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

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nopride2
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Reged: 03/01/04
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Loc: Seattle, Wa.
Re: If it was british? [Re: Dark_Helmet]
      #8332 - 06/02/04 04:23 PM

The 45-70 loaded up in a modern rifle is not the old mild mannered thumper it used to be. My 45-70 Chapuis double rifle is regulated to shoot a 400 grain bullet at 1800 fps. The rifle weighs 8 pounds, points fast, and shoots accurately. Within 100 to 150 yards it is adequate for any soft skinned, non dangerous game on earth. It is not and will never be a stopping rifle. Big tough animals require a cartridge powerfull enough to kill them quickly and humanely.

Dave

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atkinson6
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Reged: 26/01/04
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Re: If it was british? [Re: nopride2]
      #9249 - 17/02/04 03:08 PM

What is it about the 45-70 that casterates some of their minds...Cannot they read the balistic charts? have they ever shot a head of game? to coin Jack O it does not take a 7th son of a 7th son to figure out it just isn't powerful enough for DR and the Model A can't run in the 500......

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webley
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 33
Re: If it was british? [Re: nopride2]
      #9270 - 17/02/04 07:18 PM

Nopride2,
Most of the 'vintage' cartridges could be loaded to higher than original pressures (in a the right rifle).

I could say that my .450 3 1/4" BPE cartridges are suitable for Elephant - if shot in a Chapuis; loaded with 480 grn solids & filled with enough smokeless powder to push them at 2125 fps. The only difference between the .450 3 1/4" BPE & the .450 3 1/4 N.E. is pressure after all. But that's not the point!

Therefore it's more sensible to dicuss the relative merits of these cartridges as loaded to 'factory' ballistics.

Regards
Webley

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Dark_Helmet
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Reged: 09/01/04
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Re: If it was british? [Re: webley]
      #9305 - 18/02/04 06:00 AM

well, since the "energy" quotient of this all is derived through the division of V*V*bullet weight in grains by a a known constant, we can simply compare the product of the factors and ignore the constant (which i don't remember).

400gr @ 1800fps= 1800*1800*400=1,296,000,000
250gr @ 2450fps= 2450*2450*250=1,500,625,000

so a HOT 45-70 makes about 15% less horsepower than a 35 Whelen at "standard" velocities.

tell me again why we're having this discussion????

this is before we ever talk about trajectories and ballistic coefficients..

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

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Dark_Helmet
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA
Re: If it was british? [Re: Dark_Helmet]
      #9306 - 18/02/04 06:04 AM

final point... what's the point of owning a .45cal plainsgame rifle that everyone laughs at AND requires hand loading to be "adequate"???

seriously folks, I just don't get it.

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

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ChuckWagon
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Reged: 09/02/04
Posts: 90
Loc: USA
Re: If it was british? [Re: Dark_Helmet]
      #9330 - 18/02/04 09:10 AM

Have any of you guys read the Brian Searcy article in this months Rifle Magazine ? The guy claims that he shot through a cape buff and killed a cow with the through shot ! ROTFLMAO But wait that's not all ! He even further claims that if their would have been a third animal his single shot might have killed it too ! HAAAA HAAA HAAA ooooo geez Hey, If If was a fifth we'd all be drunk ! I never had any idea people would get so freaked out about a 100 year old military cartridge. I got into a debate on Pacos Kelly's site but when one of his moderators tried to tell me that their was no need to try out his big bad lever gun on a Bison before he tried it on a cape buff. He said their was no need, After all there were so many bison killed since 1873 with the 45-70 ! I almost fell off my chair laughing as I reminded him that Winchester didn't come out with the 1886 in 45-90 and 50-110-450 because the 45-70 was adequite ! I love lever guns. The best they could produce was 1 single fellow who had shot a plains animal with the 45-70. Not a single bear or buffalo, nothing. But hey it said it would work in the magazine and after all THEY did sleep in a Holiday Inn last night Oh and by the way Swamp thing was their looking for advice on the best bullet to shoot trees and cinder blocks with. No shit honest to God ! One guy say's that his 45-70 penetrates 2 1/2 feet of tree trunk so that will surely stop any buff. I wished him luck with those charging pine stumps

--------------------
Life is more like a jar of Jalapeno's than a box of chocolates. What you do today might burn your butt tomorrow !

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ThomasEdwards
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Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 246
Loc: Newport Beach, CA
Re: If it was british? [Re: khornet]
      #9333 - 18/02/04 09:48 AM

...hundreds of years of experience with dg in the colonies and keen domestic and continental competition at the turn of the century strongly disprove that notion...

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Dark_Helmet
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA
Re: If it was british? [Re: ChuckWagon]
      #9335 - 18/02/04 10:20 AM

ok, thats 30" of hardwood... riiiiiiight. balsawood? maybe. anything heavier, have a hard time with that.

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

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ChuckWagon
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Reged: 09/02/04
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Re: If it was british? [Re: Dark_Helmet]
      #9351 - 18/02/04 11:10 AM

I almost forgot to mention the best part of this article. The PH found the buff and motioned for the hunter to come up to shooting postion. The hunter did but could not see the buff. Finally he spotted the animal and shot. The animal began to run in the opposite direction. At this point the hunter began firing. Now when they approached they found a dead cow before the dead bull. The fearless hunter insists that he knew where he placed his shots and so concludes that the only way this could have happened was if the cow was behind the bull and it was killed with a through shot. No photos of the exit wounds are offered. They do however make mention of the fact that it was a good thing the PH went along so they did not have to pay the trophy fee on the cow. No shit, I bet that is a really good thing since the magazine probably paid for his hunt

--------------------
Life is more like a jar of Jalapeno's than a box of chocolates. What you do today might burn your butt tomorrow !

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DaveJames
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Reged: 04/01/03
Posts: 66
Loc: Tidewater,Virginia
Re: If it was british? [Re: ChuckWagon]
      #9400 - 18/02/04 05:48 PM

I have never been to Africa, do shoot a 45-70, but I believe when going away to hunt its better to look at what has worked for the PH's and their advice on it. I love my 45-120 andhave some serious loads worked up in it on a No-1, but its still behind my 450Nitro.. To me hunting Cape buffaloe with a 45-70, is like me going to work with out the bullet proof vest I'm issued

--------------------
"I am always willing to learn,but not always willing to be taught."
Sir Winston Churchill

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475Guy
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Re: If it was british? [Re: DaveJames]
      #9411 - 18/02/04 06:40 PM

I love the hell out my 45-70's because they're just so accurate! The cartridge is capable of under 1" groups at 100 yds all day if your shoulder can stand it. By the way, that's with the warmish Elmer Keith loads. It's just not the cure-all a be-all cartridge that some might wish it to be.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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ChuckWagon
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Re: If it was british? [Re: DaveJames]
      #9430 - 19/02/04 12:39 AM

That's a good analagy. I mean you could do that but it probably wouldn't be too bright ! It has been said that dead is dead. Well that is true. I think we would all agree that under ideal conditions the 45-70 is capable. I was just a bit suprised that on the Leverguns forum the 45-70 is worshipped as the Mother of all lever gun cartridges. I always that that was the 44-40 In either event the old cartridge is a good one. You just can not really make it into something it is not. I think some of theese writers that print such rubbish do our sport a great disservice. It leaves the average Joe with the impression that he can take his Marlin to Africa and be well prepared. I am always taken aback when I see people on theese forums make statements such as " I can not afford $1,000 for a new gun and scope but I have saved $10,000 for a safari" ! Yikes, man I think it is great to follow your dreams and all of that good stuff. If hunting ANY of the big 5 with a 45-70 or is your plan just count me out thanks. If I could not afford 1k for a scope and a gun I most assuredly would not travel to another continent to hunt. I do not believe that any of the rifles I travel with at this point have scopes alone that were under 1k. I do know one thing for certain. If I spent that much on a hunt and I could ill afford it the CFO would have me sleeeping in the Dog house for the next several years.

--------------------
Life is more like a jar of Jalapeno's than a box of chocolates. What you do today might burn your butt tomorrow !

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urdubob
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Reged: 18/02/04
Posts: 21
Loc: Tennessee
Re: If it was british? [Re: ChuckWagon]
      #9480 - 19/02/04 09:33 AM

Wow it is nice to see some folks who know of what they speak.

The 45/70 thing is silly. You can look up and see only 15 foot pounds of energy seperate the 45/70 and a 20 guage slug in standard factory loads.

I don't have the nerve to hunt cape buffalo or Elephant with the best 20 guage slug made!

Urdubob

--------------------
God Bless Rhodesia and God Bless Ian Smith.

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ChuckWagon
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Loc: USA
Re: If it was british? [Re: urdubob]
      #9533 - 20/02/04 12:46 AM

You know the thing is on some of the other forums if you try to have a civel and logical discussion about it you just get run over. One of my faults is that I do not mind jumping in the mud and wrestling with the pigs. It is just not my first choice. I have had my share of 45-70's and enjoyed them. Most who know just a bit about history and have a fair amount of experience realize that the 45-70 was never the super killer it is cracked up to be. It is a fine old cartridge. It is just not the best choice for every thing that walks the planet.

--------------------
Life is more like a jar of Jalapeno's than a box of chocolates. What you do today might burn your butt tomorrow !

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