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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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empirevr
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dolls head?
      #81788 - 04/07/07 06:40 AM

This 'third bite' how much of a bonus is it with a double rifle if any?

Many thanks

Ben

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DUGABOY1
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Re: dolls head? [Re: empirevr]
      #81799 - 04/07/07 08:05 AM

Quote:

This 'third bite' how much of a bonus is it with a double rifle if any?

Many thanks

Ben



In my opinion, the third fastener is simply a back-up safety block against the rifle opening on fireing! Many discount the value of third fasteners, especially the so-called greener cross bolt, but they are all valuable IMO! The greener cross bolt, if properly fitted is just as positive as any other type of third fastener. Are they needed? NO,in most cases, Do they make the rifle more secure? YES they do, but it is simply up to the buyer, to decide how valuable they are to him. For me, I want them!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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empirevr
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Re: dolls head? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #81802 - 04/07/07 08:51 AM

Thanks Mac

For some reason i had it in my head that they could somehow aid the gun in staying on face, however now i am not so sure....

And just to show my lack of experience with such matters, does it aid the strength of the locking mechanism, i.e. is the gun more resilient to the rebound which occurs during firing, or is in fact a weakening factor upon the mechanism?

Ok...is an action with a 'third bite' safety a tougher/stronger/longer lasting action than one without, or vice versa?

Thankyou kindly.

Ben

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Marrakai
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Re: dolls head? [Re: empirevr]
      #81826 - 04/07/07 01:13 PM

Ben:
I have a high opinion of the third bite, and generally place a higher value on guns fitted with them.

Don't forget the Westley Richards C-bolt: on many early examples the single bite on the doll's head is the only fastener on the gun!

Most third bites have some slight camming action if well-fitted, Webley screw-grip is probably the best, but I like the Leonard-built Jeffery dolls-head with bite, and not just because I happen to own one! (Sadly, I dont own any DRs with screw-grips or WR C-bolts!)

A 'proper' third bite on a well-built rifle will definitely aid in longevity IMHO.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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empirevr
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Re: dolls head? [Re: Marrakai]
      #81845 - 04/07/07 09:09 PM

Hi Tony

Please see my gun weight posting,

The heavier gun which has me stumped, has the doll's head thingy.

Many thanks

Ben

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4seventy
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Re: dolls head? [Re: empirevr]
      #81852 - 05/07/07 12:50 AM

Quote:

This 'third bite' how much of a bonus is it with a double rifle if any?



Webley A&WC (screw grip) and PHV1 (treble bite) actions are renouned for their strength and part of that is due to their third bite systems. Excellent design, quality materials, and skilled workmanship are also responsible for the Webley reputation.

A well designed and well fitted third bite should add to the strength of the action.
This is only true if the gun is in original tight condition.
Guns that have been shot considerably in a loose condition, and are later tightened on the hinge pin or hook, are a different story altogether.

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empirevr
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Re: dolls head? [Re: 4seventy]
      #81864 - 05/07/07 03:20 AM

Hmmm

Very interesting...

This 450 seems to be a lot heavier, and made stronger also.

Is this some relation to cordite or what?

I cannot believe they would make a 450 bpe 10.5 lbs dolls head etc etc just to fire that round....

Or am i wrong?

The 577's are from 10-11 lbs normally, so whats going on?

Many thanks

Ben

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DUGABOY1
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Re: dolls head? [Re: empirevr]
      #81869 - 05/07/07 04:11 AM

Quote:

Thanks Mac

For some reason i had it in my head that they could somehow aid the gun in staying on face, however now i am not so sure....

And just to show my lack of experience with such matters, does it aid the strength of the locking mechanism, i.e. is the gun more resilient to the rebound which occurs during firing, or is in fact a weakening factor upon the mechanism?

Ok...is an action with a 'third bite' safety a tougher/stronger/longer lasting action than one without, or vice versa?

Thankyou kindly.

Ben



Empirevr, You are correct, they do benefite the stringth of a break top firearm. Any addtional lock-up plays some part in the overall stringth of the rifle. Some do more than others, however, and none do anything if not fitted properly. I think if I had to choose one as more benificial, it would be a well fitted doll's head. The doll's head with the addtion of a bite is even better, and the screw grip on a doll's head is better yet. The best hedge against an "OFF FACE " condition is propper fitting in the first place of the barrels to the action, and the tight fitting of the lumps, and henge pin/lump hook, with proper care in the lubrication of those surfaces.
There are may double rifle with only the double bite under lumps, and hook/pin mateing that have survived for 100 yrs of use, without going off face, but those were properly fitted,by the maker, and properly cared for by their owners. Still some of the third fasteners are simply camoflage, and do nothing at all, but these are usually on cheap shotguns, and some bargain basement rifles. What it all boils down to is the individual firearm/maker,in the final analysis. Usually if the rifle is a well made example, it can be relied on to remaine tight, with proper care regardless of the number of fasteners!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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empirevr
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Re: dolls head? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #81870 - 05/07/07 04:40 AM

This gun which (see my weight post) has the third bite is a Bonehill.

At 10.5 lbs also i am stumped.....bit OTT for a 450x3.25 no???(black powder!)

Many thanks Mac

Ben

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DUGABOY1
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Re: dolls head? [Re: empirevr]
      #81974 - 07/07/07 09:28 AM

IMO, the 10.5 lbs weight is not out of line for a 450- 3 1/4" BPE! Almos all my hunting rifles are in the 10 lb range, except my little Merkel 9.3X74R, which weighs in at 8.5 lbs, and my 500/450#1 express weighs almost 10 lbs,with 28" barrels, and it is a BLACK POWDER EXPRESS, yet it handles like a BB gun! A 10.5 lb double wouldn't worry me at all, just makes it easier to work up a regulating load, by reduceing recoil!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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empirevr
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Re: dolls head? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #81999 - 07/07/07 10:46 PM

Good point Mac, thanks.....


Hmm, think i'll mail the guns i am considering to you if thats ok, i want some opinions from experts...not a decision based upon my own fancies.

Ben

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unspellable
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Re: dolls head? [Re: empirevr]
      #82121 - 10/07/07 12:49 AM

Question: If a rifle/gun has three bites, any one of them can maintain tightness as far as trying to manipulate the piece in an effort to determine if it is tight. Is there a good procedure for determining if all three bites are really sharing the load? For example, I have an inexpensive shot gun with a Greener cross bolt. How do I know if it's doing anything other than looking pretty?

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DarylS
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Re: dolls head? [Re: unspellable]
      #82122 - 10/07/07 01:04 AM

One thing a doll's head doesn't do, is to prevent the bending down of the barrels, rotating on the pivot, only from sliding foreward which cannot happen unless very loose. I question it's value, however do acknowledge the advantage of a cross-bolt, properly fitted as being a far superior device.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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empirevr
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Re: dolls head? [Re: DarylS]
      #82136 - 10/07/07 05:01 AM

Old guns seem not to have the cross-bolt, well i mean hammer guns......i suppose they cannot have the cross-bolt can they? memory has gone.....

The doll's head looks like it would help against the recoil force opening the top of the breach of the barrels upon firing, or is it just me going mad again???

I kept thinking; 'with just the Jones lever closing it via its teeth, how is the top of the barrel at the breach held closed?' with a doll's head it seems that does it....

The Manton has a doll's head.

Ben

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Omnivorous_Bob
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Re: dolls head? [Re: empirevr]
      #82149 - 10/07/07 10:23 AM

Ben, I’ve got a hammer gun with a cross bolt. There always seems to be some exception to the rule.

In addition to preventing the barrels from moving forward away from the face on firing, a doll’s head or any sort of rib extension also provides some lateral support similar to side clips. As Daryl said though, I really question the benefit of the former over the later, because I’d think a gun would have to be severely off face to begin with for it to be of any value.

Since the lumps are well below the bore axis, I’d imagine that preventing rotation about the hinge pin would be by far the most beneficial function of a third fastener, followed by lateral support. While a properly fitted cross bolt does this, so does the c-bolt, screw grip, doll’s head with bite, etc.

The key is ‘properly fitted.’ Without that all of them are just for looks.

I think the jones action has a good reputation for strength because it actually torques the barrels to the water table rather than just hold them there. Any action type will lock up tight when new or in good repair, but after 100 years of wear and tear and questionable maintenance this is where the jones may offer an advantage, (that is, stay functional a bit longer into the wear cycle). I’ve seen several where the lever went a bit farther to the left than normal when closed. I supposed that this was the ‘self adjusting’ attribute in play, that is taking up the wear on the bites and ‘screw.’ Again though, really only an advantage if the gun is worn past the point of requiring maintenance in the first place, like a poorly fitted dolls head without a bite in my mind.

Bottom line to my ramble, while I think some designs are better than others from an engineering standpoint, proper fit, care and wear are much much more important. A lot of guns do just fine with only 2.

Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"

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Marrakai
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Re: dolls head? [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #82159 - 10/07/07 01:33 PM

There are plenty of TLH doubles with cross-bolts. One in my safe at the moment is William Powell's own patent I believe (at least the Powell ledger entry referred to it as "our crossbolt"). The bolt is square in cross-section, fitted low within the standing breech, and locks onto the top of an extended rear lump, rather than a rib extension. Its a plain gun, but made up in 'best quality' according to the ledger. Lovely stuff!

And BTW, I believe the Jones-patent rotary under-lever does not lock the barrel-flats down onto the action-flats, unless it is off the face (or about to come off the face). When new, the rotary under-lever locks the barrels down onto the standing breech-face, the same as in a top-lever gun. This misconception has arisen because a Jones under-lever gun can be off the face but still feel tight (ie not rattly) when it is 'down on the flats'. This is probably why it is regarded as a 'stronger' action, because far fewer under-lever guns are buggered enough to actually 'rattle', even though they may be technically 'loose'.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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empirevr
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Re: dolls head? [Re: Marrakai]
      #82170 - 10/07/07 05:47 PM

Guys...

Thanks....

Go see the link to the gun on the heading 'Manton quality'

Cheers

Ben

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unspellable
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Re: dolls head? [Re: empirevr]
      #82187 - 11/07/07 03:30 AM

It should be noted that a doll's head without a bite (Last such I saw was on a Jeffery 450-400) does serve to help keep the action closed on firing. It does nothing to prevent opening the action to load and at first glance one would think the same thing would apply on firing. How ever the forces are subtly different in their action and the center of rotation for the doll's head at firing is not the hinge pin. I've a diagram of this someplace, wish I had it here. Of course this assumes proper fitting.

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rigbymauser
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Re: dolls head? [Re: unspellable]
      #82188 - 11/07/07 04:15 AM

My upcomming Manton has "dollshead"..

http://www.champlinarms.com/Default.aspx...3&GunID=837

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empirevr
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Re: dolls head? [Re: rigbymauser]
      #82191 - 11/07/07 05:35 AM

Gees

I admit it, that is one hell of a handsome piece....

Rigby, did you see my other post with the Manton 500???

It looks great, but i am waiting to see the bore pics and proof pics(showing also the dodgy area under the forend which seems to pick up rust like a magnet)

Any way of telling if this, your gun, and the other, quite possibly my gun soon, are 'real' Mantons or guns made for the Manton company?

Thanks

Ben

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400NitroExpress
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Re: dolls head? [Re: empirevr]
      #82199 - 11/07/07 08:33 AM

Quote:

Gees

Any way of telling if this, your gun, and the other, quite possibly my gun soon, are 'real' Mantons or guns made for the Manton company?

Thanks

Ben



Again, there are no 'real' breech-loading Manton double rifles.

Joseph Manton was probably the best, and best known, of the British gunmakers during the flint era. He sent his son to establish a retail outlet, Manton & Co, in Calcutta in 1825. Joe went bankrupt shortly afterwards. After a stint in debtors' prison, he restarted his London business, but died in 1835. The remnants of his London business were sold in 1838. The Calcutta business was sold in 1846, the Manton family having no interest in it thereafter.

Manton & Co, Calcutta was a retail business, not a gunmaker. With the exception of a few guns in the very early days, all of the guns it sold under the "Manton" name were made for them by others. Manton of Calcutta was long out of Manton family hands by the time the breechloader appeared. All "Manton" of Calcutta breechloaders were "bought in" from the trade (made by someone else).

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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empirevr
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Re: dolls head? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #82201 - 11/07/07 08:43 AM

400

Thanks

What do you think of the gun?

Havent got the link here, but its on the other post.(Manton quality)

Lyon and Lyon again then.........or Army Navy

The most typical maker for Manton being=? Webley again?

Ben

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400NitroExpress
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Re: dolls head? [Re: empirevr]
      #82220 - 11/07/07 02:20 PM

Ben:

It's hard to tell just from one photo. I'd sure have it gone over by a third party pro.

Lyon & Lyon, Army & Navy, Manton & Co...they were all retailers, and all used various trade makers so it's hard to generalize. I'd have to say that I've seen fewer Lyon & Lyon rifles that I'd have been happy with than A & N or Manton. However, because they each used a variety of trade makers, each rifle must be evaluated on it's own in terms of original quality. This is where being able to identify the trade maker can help.

Generally, Army & Navy and Manton are comparable because they used many of the same trade makers. Most A & N's are Webleys, but they also used Westley Richards, Osborne, Wilkes, etc. I'd say a lower percentage of the Manton's are from Webley, and some of Manton's stuff came from the Continent. Both sometimes used British suppliers that I haven't been able to identify.

Speaking in terms of the original quality of their double rifles GENERALLY...in my view, on average...Army & Navy, Manton, and Lyon a distant third.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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empirevr
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Re: dolls head? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #82261 - 12/07/07 01:57 AM

Well

I await photos of the proof marks, guess that might give some clues.

Gun looks simple and tough, my preferred style, and i wonder if it was done by a Scottish maker via the round looking action.......

Looks like good steel too......

Ben

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