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empirevr
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gun weight vs loads.
      #81246 - 25/06/07 12:20 AM

Hi all,

So, i am a bit lost once again, though the light of hope is ever burning...

I would be delighted if any of you could tell me, given that the gun weight with bore doubles relates to the guns load capability, does this system still come into play with the imperial calibers also? i.e. does a 500 bpe or 577 bpe or what have you become heavier, when intended for heavier loads, OR are these express rounds all fixed load wise?

So can you have a 577 3" for 7 drams weighing 10 lbs, and then another same caliber weighing 12 lbs intended for heavier loads, or is the load always the same etc just harder kicking in the lighter gun?

Many thanks

Ben


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Omnivorous_Bob
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Re: gun weight vs loads. [Re: empirevr]
      #81255 - 25/06/07 03:11 AM

Just my 2 cents here.

Generally, the weight of English guns are very well matched to their power level, but only generally! That is, in the absence of other markings, a 13lb gun is probably build for heavier charges that a 10lb version in the same caliber. I don’t know how well this holds for trade guns where one frame was used for many calibers.

Notable exceptions are some guns from the early days of nitro powders such as 12lb 450/400s (overkill!) and BP guns that were reproved for cordite, some of which were much too light.

Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"


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empirevr
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Re: gun weight vs loads. [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #81261 - 25/06/07 05:25 AM

Thanks Bob.

That is certainly the case with the old bore guns, but what about the express guns? arent they in the same situation as the nitro expresses?

I.E. a 577 2.3/4" can only be loaded up to say 7 drams, and therefore any gun chambered for this cartridge would have been loaded the same,no???

Many thanks, phew this one is a bit confusing.......

Ben


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JPK
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Re: gun weight vs loads. [Re: empirevr]
      #81332 - 26/06/07 01:53 PM

The "standard" English formula for shotguns is gun weight about 96 times the shot charge weight.

For a one once load, standard for a British a 16ga, this works out to six pounds even. For an english 12ga game gun shooting a standard 1 1/16oz English game load this equals 6 3/8lbs. For "new" 1 1/8oz loads this is 6 3/4lbs. For 1 1/4oz pidgeon loads this works out to 7 1/2lbs.

If you survey a selection of guns you will find that weights vary some but not too much or too often from the rule of 96.

I haven't tried the formula for any rifles, or heard that it applies to rifles, but it might be a starting point to see if it works or if a selection of express rifles points to this or another formula.

JPK


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Marrakai
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Re: gun weight vs loads. [Re: JPK]
      #81340 - 26/06/07 06:48 PM

JPK:
The 'Rule of 96' will work fine if all your express rifles are clocking only 1200 fps at the muzzle!

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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9.3x57
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Re: gun weight vs loads. [Re: Marrakai]
      #81345 - 26/06/07 11:06 PM

As I read it here, there appears to be some notion that there is some British "law" that governed gun weight. As far as I can tell, nothing of the sort existed, only a tradition {which in English gunmaking as well as society at-large had the strength of "law"} that more or less established expectations among gun buyers. Those expectations caused the gunmakers to build guns of certain weights. A "vicious circle" or "the cycle of life" depending on your perspective...

Having said that, the market did have something to do with it. A gun too heavy, or one that didn't handle lively enough, or a gun that beat the livin' beejeebers out of a guy for no good purpose would be at a competitive disadvantage against another gun of the same caliber that performed in some "better" way built by a different gunmaker.

I do believe there is a notion that "marketplace competition" was, to many of the British gunmakers, a motivating force too pedestrian or uncivilized or "below the high standards" of British gunmaking and maybe there is some truth to that notion. I have even read in print that the British gunmakers felt they "knew better" than their buyers and at times this led to the making of guns that simply didn't sell. Hard to say since it was the destruction of the British economy {in my opinion} that put paid to British gunmaking though the Germans and Americans had already been whittling away at the British gun industry for over a generation before WW2. In ARC, John Taylor had some suggestions and critiques of certain guns along these lines and reading between the lines gives the impression to me that he both respected the judgments of the gunmakers and found them lacking at times.

Such notions of caliber-requiring-certain-weight never applied to American gunmaking at all. American gunmakers have always unabashedly tramped after the market, always possessed a great deal of daring to risk trial and error in the maretplace to see what might give them an edge over the competition. Thus you will find, for example, double gun weights from the late-1800's that are all over the map, some light, some very heavy {depending entirely on purpose and cost of construction/technology of construction}. And while the British were perfecting the double gun and single loader {American interpretation: "stuck in the rut of outdated technology limiting their ability to penetrate the marketplace of the masses"}, American gunmakers were testing every breechloading contraption conceivable, never guided or hindered by any rule at all except the rule that "if it pays it stays".

There must be something essentially "human" about the weights of British heavy caliber rifles, though, as it appears that as the dust has settled, the common weights of those guns of the first quarter of the 20th century seem to be the target weights even of modern American gunmakers. Witness the lack of interest by the market in Art Alphin's elephantine series of Hannibal-whatever rifles of the late '80's/'90's. Such obesities have never taken over the market and neither have the anorexic super-lights using carbon-fibre stocks, titanium actions and muzzle breaks.

So in the final analysis it seems to me what was created and accepted on the anvil of British tradition has been proven in the furnace of the American marketplace.

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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empirevr
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Re: gun weight vs loads. [Re: 9.3x57]
      #81352 - 27/06/07 04:03 AM

Hi

9.3x57

Hmm not so simple though, heavier gun typically meant more robust for extra recoil and pressures etc upon the gun.

Example, saw a 12b rifle of weight 14 lbs 6 ounces, 3" magnum made for 10 drams or so i guess, and another which interests me is only 11 lbs and 2.5" chambered for perhaps 7 drams.

But is this about strength or recoil???

The heavier gun is stronger isnt it?

Ben


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JPK
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Re: gun weight vs loads. [Re: Marrakai]
      #81367 - 27/06/07 01:12 PM

Quote:

JPK:
The 'Rule of 96' will work fine if all your express rifles are clocking only 1200 fps at the muzzle!




Marraki,

These guys are talking express rifles, not nitro express rifles. A generally lighter weight payload at higher velocities?

At least somewhere to start.

JPK


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JPK
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Re: gun weight vs loads. [Re: JPK]
      #81368 - 27/06/07 01:21 PM

Heavier gun = more robust - Maybe. But try not looking at the powder charge and looking at the Max bullet weight. I suspect you will find a common thread in all of the bore rifles and express rifles, but you will need to look at a good number of each since many were built to what the fellow who ordered it wanted and some were built for indian game, game on the home range and game ?.

Just as a for instance, I would have ordered a 9 1/2lb 450 NE rifle in the heyday knowing what I know now about elephant hunting, if I'd been alive back then.

JPK


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9.3x57
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Re: gun weight vs loads. [Re: JPK]
      #81392 - 27/06/07 10:53 PM

Quote:

Heavier gun = more robust - Maybe.
JPK




Absolutely correct.

A heavier gun does not necessarily mean stronger in terms of its ability to handle breech pressure. THAT is dependent on materials of construction, design of the breech, heat treatment, etc, not merely the sum weight of all the parts.

One of the better examples of this, albeit not a double, is the old 1876 Winchester. Many of these guns were very heavy, and the action certainly is, but it is not a strong action by any definition.

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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empirevr
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Re: gun weight vs loads. [Re: 9.3x57]
      #81406 - 28/06/07 04:40 AM

Hi

Interesting stuff, i thought there was also the intent to reduce recoil, given that the gun would be using 10 drams instead of 7 or whatever......???

But then for those carrying the gun all day, surely as you say,they would have wanted it lighter......

Confusing stuff.......

Ben


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gatsby
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Re: gun weight vs loads. [Re: empirevr]
      #81411 - 28/06/07 05:57 AM

empire,
Your right. Weight was used to control recoil. I don't think the 96 rule applies to bp rifles or ball guns. If you take the 12 bore as an example, the same or similar weight bullet was used for guns shooting 3 to 9 drams or so. The rifles weight went up corresponding to the powder charge.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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empirevr
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Re: gun weight vs loads. [Re: gatsby]
      #81413 - 28/06/07 06:22 AM

Hi Gatsby

Thanks

Did cartridge length apply also???

Saw a 12b double rifle of 14 lbs 6 ounces, one im looking at is 11 lbs. The heavy one is a 3" and this is a 2.5"

I still find it difficult to work out, as unless im mistaken the gun firing a 3" cartridge would be under more pressure in the chamber etc, meaning the gun had to be not just heavier but stronger too, or???

For example the 577 bp versus the 577 nitro, the latter is heavier AND stronger to allow for the higher pressure/equivalent of more powder.(nitro being worth x amount more than bp)

Many thanks

Ben


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: gun weight vs loads. [Re: empirevr]
      #81436 - 28/06/07 09:47 PM

The 96 rule only applies to smoothbore nitro proof shotguns methinks. regards, Mike

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empirevr
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Re: gun weight vs loads. [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #81441 - 28/06/07 11:31 PM

Hmmm

I am not sure of the 96 rule, well in the sense of rifles, as this subject is upon the powder load behind the projectile, as opposed to the bullet weight.

Thus i site once again the example; one 12 bore rifle weighs say 14.5 lbs, another weighs 11 lbs, both are 12b caliber, yet one has a 3" chamber and the other 2.5"

The same applies to other old guns, some even in express calibers seem heavier, though with them it makes no sense, as unless im mistaken, those cartridges cannot be loaded up beyond 7 drams bp or God knows how many grains N for bp......

However, with the 'bore' rifles its another kettle of fish......

Any clues?

Ben


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escard
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Re: gun weight vs loads. [Re: empirevr]
      #81762 - 03/07/07 09:39 PM

in nitro-doubles I would rather go with another formula I once read in an old double-rifle catalogue-reprint that puts the weight-question on the point:

bullet weight (grains) multiplied by velocity (fts) divided through factor 250 = minimum rifle weight in gramms

for example: .500 NE: 570 x 2150 : 250 = 4900 gramms = 4,90 kg
.577 NE: 750 x 2050 : 250 = 6150 gramms = 6,15 kg
.450 NE: 500 x 2150 : 250 = 4300 gramms = 4,30 kg
.600 NE: 900 x 1900 : 250 = 6840 gramms = 6,84 kg


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JPK
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Re: gun weight vs loads. [Re: escard]
      #81773 - 03/07/07 11:27 PM

Minimum rifle weights in (rounded) lbs would be:

450NE = 9 1/2lbs
500NE = 10 3/4lbs
577NE = 13 1/2lbs
600NE = 15lbs

As a check for an express rifle I tried 400grs at 1900fps. Minimum gun weight came out at 7 3/4lbs.

Seems a reasonable starting point.

Thanks for posting the formula Escard.

JPK


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smicha6551
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Re: gun weight vs loads. [Re: JPK]
      #81832 - 04/07/07 03:26 PM

I tried that calculation for 9.3x74, using Norma ballistics.

285 x 2362 / 250 = 2.69 KG = 5.9 Lbs.

That's right around what some single shot 9.3mm rifles' weight. I can't imagine a double rifle that light though.


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escard
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Re: gun weight vs loads. [Re: smicha6551]
      #81836 - 04/07/07 04:38 PM

sorry, seems as it works well only on the nitros (most 9,3 doubles that I could have in hand weight around 8 - 9 pounds...),
....whereas, the 96-formula would give an extremely light weight of about 1,75 kg (= 3,9 pounds)!!!
thats less weight than the barrels alone........


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empirevr
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Re: gun weight vs loads. [Re: escard]
      #81840 - 04/07/07 06:12 PM

Getting confusing here now.....

I noticed how 9 out of 10 .450 bpe rifles weigh in at between 10 and 10.5 lbs....how come? There is no need for this weight on this caliber gun surely???

You can often find 577's at 10 lbs weight......

I wonder if the weight thing only applies to bore guns....dont think the express rounds can be loaded up or down much, or am i wrong? bullet weight is always about the same too, no?

All the best,

Ben


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escard
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Re: gun weight vs loads. [Re: empirevr]
      #81892 - 05/07/07 04:13 PM

I personally found myself to be running very good with that formula in spite of doubles....as you read in the formula: "minimum rifle weight" - means you could also have made a .450 weighing 12 or more pounds.... class of "lightly-constructed-hunting-girl"....

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empirevr
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Re: gun weight vs loads. [Re: escard]
      #81910 - 06/07/07 01:08 AM

Well,

I guess its all relative, a strong moderately light gun is perhaps best, designed originally for long hunts though, not paper punching at the ranges.....which is what most doubles do now.

Its not the recoil that is really a concern,until we go way way too light in weight, but it is the guns construction strength that counts.

Ben


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