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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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Taylor416
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Reged: 25/11/04
Posts: 161
Loc: Central West, New South Wales....
Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: Judson]
      #95491 - 30/01/08 10:37 AM

For interests sake!!

There are a series of short video's on You tube posted by "J White Gunsmith Shop" displaying some of the procedures to convert from a 12 gage side by side to a double rifle.

Type in "double rifle conversion".


cheers

Chris

--------------------
Love to hunt!

Edited by Taylor416 (30/01/08 11:36 AM)

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Judson
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Reged: 21/09/05
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Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: Taylor416]
      #95663 - 01/02/08 11:51 AM

I think the conversion was done on a pre-Ithica LaFever which is a great gun but not a strong enough canidate for a double rifle conversion.Lots of people seem to be getting into building double rifles on shot gun actions, I have seen some sleeved Stevens 311 up here and not all shot guns have the strength for rifles so think before you build. Too much work is involved in the conversion for you to blow one up on the reproof testing. Also it is not worth your life or body parts. If (IMHO) you do not have a gun where you can determine the proof pressures and insure that your conversion are well below (30% or more per square inch) that then find another gun to work with. Guns are cheep compaired to your life or law suits!

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

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gallatin
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Reged: 30/05/07
Posts: 44
Loc: Olympia,Wa. USA
Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: Judson]
      #96271 - 08/02/08 10:40 AM

I'm going to start looking for barrels, for the action I have, It has a greener cross bolt and double underlugs and a hidden third fastner aft of the crossbolt. It's also very tight. With judsons suggestion of using the 450#2, the proof will only be 75% of the original proof in terms of breech thrust, so I think it will do fine. Back to barrels, should I have the maker short chamber and thread the shank or will that add problems down the line?

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Judson
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Reged: 21/09/05
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: gallatin]
      #96599 - 12/02/08 11:01 AM


If you have a lathe and can get a chambering reamer I would do it my self. I also would make up the extractor/ejectors and cut them at the same time as the chamber is cut. If you try to cut the extractor latter you stand the chance, and a good one of the reamer enlarging the chamber. If this happens at best your brass will have a short life and be hard o resize and in the worst case you will need to get new barrels. Dave Manson will have the chambering reamer, probably in stock and his reamers are great. If you do not find his # let me know and I will give it to you but it is in my shop and I am in my house. I think the business name is LOON LAKE PERSISION TOOL. You will find brass, loading dies, and bullets at Huntingtons and they will be on the shelf. If you get stuck give me a call any time.

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: Otto]
      #102563 - 16/04/08 05:23 AM

Quote:

There's a gent in Alaska who built a 450 #2 DR on a Huglu 12g SXS. The rifle has been shot a bunch with stout loads and is way loose. Couldn't tell if the bar stretched or the hinge pin bent. Since the CZ is a Huglu, thought this might be appropriate input. Building a DR on a SXS shotgun is so much work, it's kinda dumb to start with a questionable action. I built my 450 NE on a J.P.Sauer 16g BLE and it's tight as can be after 300+ shots.
Otto



My guess is that he did not grease the hinge. I have well over 1000 rounds through a full nitro 45-120 I built on a Huglu 201a and it is as tight as the day I bought it. That being said I prefer Merkels these days, if you can find one in good condition.

BS-

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.

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Sarg
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Reged: 20/01/07
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #102618 - 16/04/08 09:01 PM

BlainSmipy :

Could you elaborate on why you would prefer Merkel please ?
As you have proved how strong the Huglu can be , I,m looking at a Merkel type also , but they seem alittle light weight ! I have a Sauer 12 Ga ,but have seen Simson & Buhag shotguns from Shul?? that all look like Merkel actions .
Trying to find a action for 577 light Nitro which I think fits the 12Ga action size better than smaller cases (firing pin spaceing etc )
Thank you !

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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: Sarg]
      #102635 - 17/04/08 02:49 AM

Quote:

BlainSmipy :

Could you elaborate on why you would prefer Merkel please ?
As you have proved how strong the Huglu can be , I,m looking at a Merkel type also , but they seem alittle light weight ! I have a Sauer 12 Ga ,but have seen Simson & Buhag shotguns from Shul?? that all look like Merkel actions .
Trying to find a action for 577 light Nitro which I think fits the 12Ga action size better than smaller cases (firing pin spaceing etc )
Thank you !



I prefer the Merkels because the over all quality of the gun is better(and you pay for it as well); stock, barrels, frame, fit and finish. The Huglu's are a remarkable gun for the price, but the Merkels really shine. I would not hesitate to use a Husky, Simson or JP Sauer either; all fine guns of high quality. The only real bummer is that its hard to find one of these old German guns in a hammer type, which I really like. I just love hammer guns. I would also consider a Greener E25, but its really hit a miss on the quality of these guns due to their age and amount of usage. There are some real dogs out there, and the sellers are asking premium dollars for them. All IMHO.

BS

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.

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gallatin
.224 member


Reged: 30/05/07
Posts: 44
Loc: Olympia,Wa. USA
Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #103287 - 23/04/08 12:38 PM

Blain,I'm not being a smart... but what is a full nitro 45-120? I started the whole idea of a double rifle with the 45-120 in mind,sort of a step up from my very hot 45-70 loads that I dont any longer load for my 1895cb. Then Judson comes along and muddies my water with that siren talk about way cool 4 1/2inch cartridge in the 450 # 2 at 25,000 psi. So many guns so little time.
My loading manual has no mention of either one. how do they compare?
what do you think of the 45-120 brass that cabellas has in it's store?
John

Edited by gallatin (26/04/08 03:19 PM)

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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: gallatin]
      #103371 - 24/04/08 07:47 AM

Quote:

Blain,I'm not being a smart... but what is a full nitro 45-120? I started the whole idea of a double rifle with the 45-120 in mind,sort of a step up from my very hot 45-70 loads that I dont any longer load for my 1985cb. Then Judson comes along and muddies my water with that siren talk about way cool 4 1/2inch cartridge in the 450 # 2 at 25,000 psi. So many guns so little time.
My loading manual has no mention of either one. how do they compare?
what do you thing of the 45-120 brass that cabellas has in it's store?
John



In my context I mean a full on smokeless load of 4000FPE+ with a modern jacketed bullet. The 45-120 Sharps were originally black-powder loads (as are most of the old British rounds), therefore I differentiate between the old load and my loads. I pretty much match the 450NE loads.

450 #2 is a 3.5" case, and produces 13 tons breech pressure per GW data. The 45-120 is a 3.25" less volume than the 450#2 and is best guess around 16 tons at equal full nitro load. I keep my loads around 10 to 11 tons using, again, GW data/load for the 450NE for that pressure loading. Its probably a little more than that, but the velocities are coming out exactly as he publishes them. i.e. 450NE, 80 grains RL 15 with a 480 Woodleigh equals 2050FPS. My loads, with the same amount of powder and bullet match this exactly per my chrono.

Who makes the brass? Cabellas? I have some old Bell brass which splits or drops the primer after about 5 shots. 45-120 brass is easy to get and fairly cheap...577NE on the other hand is $5.00 a pop!

Blain

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.

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gallatin
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #105363 - 17/05/08 10:19 AM

Blain;
Sorry, I was thinking of the loaded round at near 4.5 in. And the brass that I saw at Cabellas was made by Norma. it seemed fine except it has the face of the rim camfered at the edge.
My problem is this; I like the idea of voluptuous cases with their low chamber pressures, but there seems to be disagreement as to fillers, their make up and their safty. That discussion on chamber ringing made my hair a little greyer. I'm trying to find that cartridge that has enough case volume to allow for 4000fpe+ with 405gr to 500gr. heads at low pressure with out so much volume that fillers are needed. Or is that not possable as the volume in case capacity needed for low (25,000-35,000 psi)pressures is so large as to require the use of fillers?
What is the case capacity of the 450 #2 I can't find it in any of my books?
John

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gallatin
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: gallatin]
      #107299 - 13/06/08 04:20 AM

poeple often speak of a "matched set of barrels" what makes two barrels matched? are they necessary? I'm in the Pacific Northwest are there recomended barrel makers near me?
John

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Bramble
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: gallatin]
      #107301 - 13/06/08 04:46 AM

It doesent refer to the two individual barrels that make up a set of DR barrels.

It means that one might have a 405 NE for example and a set of 375 flanged barrels that "match" the 450's in style finish and sighting arangment. Thus one action two sets of barrels. That match.

I dont know if anyboody has made a set of DR barrels with two differing rifled tubes, either in twist rate or rifleing profile. There would be no reason to do so apart from economy and given the cost of the rest it is insignificant. It might make no difference, but on the other hand it could make the adjustments for regulation interesting to say the least.

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
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Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: Bramble]
      #107310 - 13/06/08 08:19 AM

The combination of two different rifle calibers in the over/under system is fairly common in Germany. It is called a Bergstutzen (mountain carbine) and typically has one barrel in a small caliber (.22 Hornet, .222 Remington, 5.6X50R Magnum) and the other in a larger caliber (6.5X57R, 7X57R, 7X65R). Perhaps one of our German members can explain how they are sighted in.

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gallatin
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Reged: 30/05/07
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: xausa]
      #107388 - 14/06/08 03:22 PM

ok,I see now,thank you for that Bramble. It seems that people who have lathes tend to get barrels that they turn down to a taper of their liking, and if so equiped I would also for the shear enjoyment of having created each part. But could one order barrels in a certain taper and not be creating problems downstream? I do know that this first project will be a 45-120, so should I order the barrels chambered to 45-70,90,110 and finish ream after fitting the barrels to the mono block?
John

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tinker
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: gallatin]
      #107415 - 15/06/08 01:40 AM

Gallatin-

I can't imagine approaching this kind of project without access to a lathe and the skills to properly run one.



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Bramble
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: tinker]
      #107426 - 15/06/08 06:47 AM

I agree, it would be a very difficult task.

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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: Bramble]
      #107493 - 16/06/08 07:04 AM

If the barrels comes short chambered and with the correct profile and tapered down for the monoblock, what work is there left for a lathe?

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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Bramble
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: 450_366]
      #107494 - 16/06/08 08:16 AM

450-366

Just for starters, bushes to fill in the excess between the existing rim cut and the new, making extractors/ejectors. Sight blocks. and many other things.
Some are better done on a mill, but if one hasen't access to a lathe, then one must presume a mill is also unavailible.
I supose that it could be done with very carefull planning and pre-measurment, however it leaves no margin for adjustments.
A good lathe should really be the pre-requisit of even a well equiped amateur machine shop.

Regards

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tinker
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: Bramble]
      #107504 - 16/06/08 11:03 AM

Andreas-

As Bramble notes, the lathe is the cornerstone of even a basic metalshop.
Owning/operating a lathe brings the essential conversation of precision to the project.

--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: Bramble]
      #107545 - 16/06/08 08:56 PM

Quote:

450-366

Just for starters, bushes to fill in the excess between the existing rim cut and the new, making extractors/ejectors. Sight blocks. and many other things.
Some are better done on a mill, but if one hasen't access to a lathe, then one must presume a mill is also unavailible.
I supose that it could be done with very carefull planning and pre-measurment, however it leaves no margin for adjustments.
A good lathe should really be the pre-requisit of even a well equiped amateur machine shop.

Regards



Offcourse its better to have a lathe and no garage is complete whitout one. But its not impossible to do it without, it only take much longer. There are plenty of companys that could provide their service on the small parts.
What i mean is that the absence of heavy machinery shouldnt stop anyone from trying. In worst case you would be left with the fact that you need paying someone else to do some steps. There are shops building complete semiauto guns with only a pair of files so if you got the time everything is possible.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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