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John
.300 member


Reged: 23/01/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Manitoba, Canada
Disk-set Strikers Sticking!
      #79635 - 31/05/07 06:53 AM

Disk-set Strikers: I am having trouble with the strikers “sticking” in the primer and apparently causing enough drag to make opening the rifle difficult. The rifle is a “working class” English DR in .470NE. I am shooting factory Federal ammo which chrographs at just under 2000 fps (26 inch barrel).

After I fired the first two rds I had to “smack” the barrels to open them, it was very obvious that the left hand striker was a little proud. I was surprised how hard I had to push this striker (with the nose of my Leatherman) to force it rearward.

I have removed one striker (the right hand), the striker was pitted on its forward seat, and there were also scratches on the inside of the disk, which together caused the striker to stick. We have polished the striker and disk, it now appears to be free and smooth, but have not retested. The second disk has refused all our efforts to unscrew so far.

The seller assured me they had test fired this rifle and she was ready to hunt Cape Buffalo, so understandable I am not amused, but that is an issue I do not wish to discuss publicly at this time.

My question for other users of old English DR is this: The seller tells me that it is normal for the strikers of these old rifles to stick on modern primers which are softer that the old ones. Any one else experience this? If so it hardly makes sense for these rifles to still be used against DG!


John


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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Disk-set Strikers Sticking! [Re: John]
      #79636 - 31/05/07 07:12 AM



John

Quite a common problem and not something to be greatly worried about.

1. Often older DR's have not been serviced and the striker has become pointed, the wrong shape or whatever. (FYI, when I buy a new DR, this is one of the things that my gunsmith looks at ebfore I take it out to the range).

A gunsmith can shape the firing pin correctly and / or adjust the length the firing pin protrudes.


2. Fed 215 Primers are the ones I have the most problem with this happening - it seems to be the softness of the Primer metal.

Not sure if you reload but you may need to try some of the other primers.


As you say, you have to "bang" on the bottom of the gun to get the strikers to return far enough back to allow the gun to open.

MAKE SURE AT NO TIME anyone tries to force the barrels open by putting the gun over the knee !!! I have seen it tried and it will bend / break the strikers.

Hope that helps.


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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Disk-set Strikers Sticking! [Re: 500Nitro]
      #79639 - 31/05/07 07:55 AM

This isn't any kind of big deal, so don't condemn a nice rifle over it.

Yes, the problem you describe is common and normal.

These rifles were set up to fire the ammunition of the day - Kynoch ammo loaded with Cordite lit by a much larger diameter Berdan cap that used a copper (corrosive) or brass (non-corrosive) primer cup. What was ideal for the protrusion and shape of strikers for these primers isn't for the smaller modern Boxer primers. Some of the strikers in these rifles weren't even round. The firing pins probably need to be re-shaped and re-radiused by a smith who works regularly with DRs.

Be wary of Federal factory .470 ammo. There are two common problems with it. It is usually overloaded. A dealer friend recently chronographed a batch of it from a new Heym with 24" barrels and got 2,220 fps, which is way too fast. Your result of under 2,000 fps with 26" barrels is the other problem - lot to lot consistency is often poor.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Disk-set Strikers Sticking! [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #79640 - 31/05/07 08:05 AM


400

Why did I know you'd chime in !!!

Glad you did as always.

I have seen people condemn rifles because of it,
I now expect it, especially since I have no had
so many with this same "issue" it is now fixed
by my gunsmith before I even go to a range.

I agree very much about one thing
"The firing pins probably need to be re-shaped and re-radiused by a smith who works regularly with DRs."

with the emphasis on
"by a smith who works regularly with DRs.


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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Disk-set Strikers Sticking! [Re: 500Nitro]
      #79641 - 31/05/07 08:41 AM

Yep. With the British guns built for the old ammo, I think that there are two types. The ones you don't have this problem with are those that have already had this procedure done, and the rest still need it. My smith is doing these all the time. For sure, there is no sticking if the strikers are properly attended to.

Yes, when dealing with a rifle that is new to me, I always expect it.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Disk-set Strikers Sticking! [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #79642 - 31/05/07 08:46 AM


"I think that there are two types. The ones you don't have this problem with are those that have already had this procedure done, and the rest still need it."

Very Well put.

Out of 30+ or so DR's I've owned or currently owned,
I think 2 - 4 didn't need it and I would say they
had been done before.

Anything that I've picked up that has been hidden,
not used, unserviced because it hadn't been shot
for a while definately needed it without question.

Interestingly, it is not a question you see on many of the forums.


400
I find Fed215's a great primer for firing the ammo but
a prick of a primer for Softness.

What do you prefer ?


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John
.300 member


Reged: 23/01/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Manitoba, Canada
Re: Disk-set Strikers Sticking! [Re: 500Nitro]
      #79643 - 31/05/07 09:11 AM

Thanks for the input, very much appreciated. What primers work the best when reloading? I had planned on using Federal 215, but until I find some Woodleigh SP bullets reloading is on hold.

Anyone any experience with the Norma factory .470 NE ammo?

I just tested the right barrel with one rd and although the striker is now free in the disk it is still sticking. What is the “secret” in modifying the striker? And secondly who is recommended to do the work?

John


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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Disk-set Strikers Sticking! [Re: John]
      #79649 - 31/05/07 09:53 AM



"What is the “secret” in modifying the striker? And secondly who is recommended to do the work?"


Your in the US so one of the US boys will have to answer that.

As to "what is the secret"
That's why we use people / gun smiths who know DR's !!!


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John
.300 member


Reged: 23/01/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Manitoba, Canada
Re: Disk-set Strikers Sticking! [Re: 500Nitro]
      #79650 - 31/05/07 10:00 AM

I don't wish to insult you but to say that Manitoba, Canada is part of the US, is as bad as calling you a "convict"!

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Disk-set Strikers Sticking! [Re: John]
      #79651 - 31/05/07 10:40 AM



John


You are welcome to insult me with a mistake like that !!!


I should have elooked more closely.


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John
.300 member


Reged: 23/01/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Manitoba, Canada
Re: Disk-set Strikers Sticking! [Re: 500Nitro]
      #79652 - 31/05/07 11:00 AM



500 Nitro

No problem. Have a good day.

John


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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Disk-set Strikers Sticking! [Re: John]
      #79659 - 31/05/07 12:33 PM

John:

Not being in Canada either, I'm also at a bit of a disadvantage. Based solely on what I hear through the grapevine, I'd probably call Nick Makinson. He has built DRs in the past, so he should be should be capable.

Yes, the Federal 215 is generally considered to have a soft cup, which is why I use it for large bore DR handloading. If there are no problems with the gun or load, they'll function fine.

Even when using pressure tested data with the same components, you're still poking about in the dark some when handloading the large bore DR rounds. Because max pressure and proof pressure are so low, you can't use conventional pressure signs as a guide. By the time you get them, you're well beyond proof pressure. The hope is that the softer cup will give you earlier warning, albeit definitely belated. Better late than later.

I've shot Norma in other flanged DRs, but not .470. The good news for the .470 may be the rumor that Hornady will be releasing new factory ammo at SCI in January.

Woodleighs are the proper choice for that rifle.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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Arctic
.275 member


Reged: 01/04/04
Posts: 87
Loc: Arctic Canada
Re: Disk-set Strikers Sticking! [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #79673 - 31/05/07 04:58 PM

John, Nick can do the pins, and so can Ralf Martini at Martini-Hagn. Bruno Gross can most likely supply the components you need. Both are in Access to Firearms.
~Arctic~

--------------------
"A stranger is a friend we haven't met!"


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John
.300 member


Reged: 23/01/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Manitoba, Canada
Re: Disk-set Strikers Sticking! [Re: Arctic]
      #79717 - 01/06/07 10:13 AM

Thanks Barry, I called Ralf and spoke to him, the .470 is now on her way to them to be "sorted out."

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3595
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Disk-set Strikers Sticking! [Re: John]
      #79725 - 01/06/07 01:36 PM

John:
I use Federal 215 and Remington 9 1/2 M primers interchangeably in all the NE cartridges I load for, and find absolutely no difference in velocity or regulation. The Remington is definitely harder than the Federal, so that could be worth a try.

Regarding primer sticking, I simply round-off the striker noses and polish the tips with fine emery, although I've only had a slight problem with two doubles in the past. I wouldn't have thought this was worth sending a double across the country into a reputable gunsmith's work-queue to have fixed IMHO, although removing a stuck disc may be quite another story!

Hope it gets sorted quickly and painlessly.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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Arctic
.275 member


Reged: 01/04/04
Posts: 87
Loc: Arctic Canada
Re: Disk-set Strikers Sticking! [Re: Marrakai]
      #79728 - 01/06/07 05:24 PM

John, you made a wise decision, .....between Ralf and Adolph
they'll have the identified problems and most likely another one or two you didn't know about corrected. It shouldn't leave the shop until they're happy that it's reliable for serious work. Obviously Ralf identified me! Welcome to the fraternity! ~Arctic~

--------------------
"A stranger is a friend we haven't met!"


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John
.300 member


Reged: 23/01/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Manitoba, Canada
Re: Disk-set Strikers Sticking! [Re: Arctic]
      #79735 - 01/06/07 11:17 PM

Marraki
Thanks for the advice on primers I will try some Remington 9 1/2M primers.

I am sending the .470 to "Martini & Hagn Ltd" for two reasons: First I recently purchased a 9.3 x 74R O/U from Ralph, for my personal use, and I was impressed with his honesty and integrity. Secondly I need to have this rifle "sorted out" by someone I trust to restore my confidence in her. I paid a good price for her from a reputable US dealer and so far I are very disappointed. Firing pins sticking in primers causing a DR to be tough to open may be considered a minor problem but I find it totally unacceptable in a rifle I was told was test fired and ready to hunt Buffalo etc in Africa.

John

Edited by John (01/06/07 11:19 PM)


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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Disk-set Strikers Sticking! [Re: John]
      #79736 - 01/06/07 11:34 PM


John,

Have you told the people who you bought it from ?

Just remember, if they test fired it, they could
have been using custom ammo (Superior) or another
brand where it maybe didn't show up.


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John
.300 member


Reged: 23/01/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Manitoba, Canada
Re: Disk-set Strikers Sticking! [Re: 500Nitro]
      #79741 - 02/06/07 02:56 AM


The first person I contacted was the sales manager he said I should re-shape the nose of the strikers but has not said how exactly to do that. and I get no comment on why the strikers are sticking! (The left one jams forward and is stuck proud of the breech face when the rifle is opened after firing) When I pay $17,500 US for a DR that I am told has been test fired and is ready for Africa I do not expect to have the strikers jam forward in the disk on the first shot! I have spoken twice to this sales manager and he has confirmed that Federal ammo was used when they test fired her. I chronographer my Federal ammo and it is certainly not a hot batch. The dealer claims the rifle fired OK and that strikers sticking in primers is common in old English DR! Given all the above I do not think it is unreasonable to treat this as a “big deal”.


I also run a reputable firearms Business in Canada and nothing pisses me off more than when a retail customer complains on the internet with out first giving the supplier an opportunity to correct any perceived problem, I am upset that I was told this rifle was “good to go” for DG, I now believe she was misrepresented. I have contacted the dealer before first posting on this forum. This dealer has suggested I send it to a Gunsmith but no apology and no mention of meeting the cost. Now I feel the price was to high for what I received.

I have made use of this excellent forum to gather input from other experienced users of DR, in an attempt to have a better understanding of this technical problem. I have purchased a DR for the purpose of hunting Buffalo (a fact I have made clear from the beginning) it is not my intention to name this dealer publicly, that is not how I operate, we will see how this issue resolves itself. I love the rifle and want to keep her but I am extremely disappointed with the problems. If they made a mistake and failed to test fire this rifle or just assumed she was OK based on what the previous owner told them, I have given them the first opportunity to resolve it. Bottom line is if this rifle proves to be unreliable I expect to return it for a prompt refund in full, after all we are talking about a DR for DG, purchased from a reputable US dealer for top dollar.

I must also add that in my search for a DR I have established an excellent rapport with two other US dealers plus a few private individuals, who have all given me excellent advice.

This forum has also proved to be extremely interesting and informative thank you.

John


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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Disk-set Strikers Sticking! [Re: John]
      #79742 - 02/06/07 03:02 AM

Given the seller, I'm not entirely surprised. I certainly don't consider them to be DR experts.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Disk-set Strikers Sticking! [Re: Marrakai]
      #79747 - 02/06/07 04:05 AM

Quote:

John:

although removing a stuck disc may be quite another story!

Hope it gets sorted quickly and painlessly.




John, on the stuck disc, there is a little trick I use to get stuck bolts, and screws out! The action placed in a deep freeze for two or three hours, and while still very cold, try the discs. The steel usually shrinks enough to make the disc easy to remove.

Works in reverse as well! The screws magnum on handguns tend to get loose when the temprature gets below zero. If they are tightened while that cold, they must be cold to get them out as well. Screws backing out in the magnum hand guns, is solved by freezing the gun, then tighening the screws snuggly, while frozen, and when hunting with them under normal tempratures, they never back out!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Disk-set Strikers Sticking! [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #79759 - 02/06/07 05:09 AM


John,

Thanks for that - a very reasonable, level headed post considering.

I like the comment "that strikers sticking in primers is common in old English DR!"

Well, what more needs to be said after the first 4 answers
to your post by myself and others.

I would have expected a more stand behind the gun attitude.

Well, at least you have been put in the right direction and it can get rectified.


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