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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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empirevr
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Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.
Action face pits...
      #79356 - 25/05/07 09:30 AM

Pitting on the face of an action, ref. bp gun......

What can be done?

Does this effect the firing of the gun?

Thanks

Ben

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NE450No2
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Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: Action face pits... [Re: empirevr]
      #79359 - 25/05/07 09:43 AM

How bad are the pits and where are they, ie near the firiing pin or where the bbls touch the face of the action?

Are they rust pits or pits caused by primer failure, or case rupture?

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empirevr
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Reged: 03/09/06
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Re: Action face pits... [Re: NE450No2]
      #79360 - 25/05/07 09:54 AM

Hi

All around where the rear of the cartridge would sit. Looks like rust pits. Pretty bad! gun is 125 years old.....yes around firing pins and outwards towards edge of where cartridge would sit.

Given that they are pretty bad, what can be done?

Im happy doing a recon......

Ben

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
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Re: Action face pits... [Re: empirevr]
      #79363 - 25/05/07 10:10 AM

This condition is pretty common. Whether or not remedial action is required depends entirely on the individual gun and how bad the pitting is. I think it would have to be really severe for it to effect function. I've shot a number of DRs with pitting as described, and have never encountered a problem.

Of course, it can be repaired by tigging it up, using a proper heat sink, and re-facing the action. This will anneal it, so the action will have to be recarburized.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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empirevr
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Reged: 03/09/06
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Re: Action face pits... [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #79365 - 25/05/07 10:27 AM

Hi

Thanks,

Anyone wishing to see photos just send me your email addy and i shall gladly post on.

Barrels are rebrowned Damascus, pitting internally doesnt seem any more severe than well, every single bp gun i have been offered....

I am happy getting it as a project, hoping it will be ok as a 12 bore still, but at worst barrel sleeve to 577x3" i suppose.......

Am i right in thinking the 12b rifle 2.5" has less pressure than the 577 by far???

Thanks

Ben

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gatsby
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Re: Action face pits... [Re: empirevr]
      #79368 - 25/05/07 11:59 AM

Empire
What did you buy? I have several damascus guns two with no pitting at all and one with some dark areas near the breech.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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empirevr
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Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
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Re: Action face pits... [Re: gatsby]
      #79374 - 25/05/07 07:41 PM

A 12b Rodda double rifle with rebrowned barrels.

Ah the toils and troubles of the dreaded pits...........

Pitting appears to be able to be remedied.

Thanks

Ben

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DarylS
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Re: Action face pits... [Re: empirevr]
      #79387 - 26/05/07 01:36 AM

12 bore BP loads rarely pruduce more tha about 10,000 psi. The .577 would run closer to 20,000 psi.
: If velocities were the same, the larger bore would still produce slightly less pressure. This happens with most calibres, given normal bullets or balls used.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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empirevr
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Re: Action face pits... [Re: DarylS]
      #79393 - 26/05/07 03:58 AM

Thanks Daryl, perfect....

As you saw in the pics, the gun seems like a cross between rifle and paradox or something....low rifling. Guessing conical and ball use?

Ben

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DoubleD
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Re: Action face pits... [Re: empirevr]
      #79420 - 26/05/07 03:01 PM

Quote:


Barrels are rebrowned Damascus, pitting internally doesnt seem any more severe than well, every single bp gun i have been offered....




If the breech face is pitted that would be least of my worries with this gun...I'd be worried, seriously worried about the barrel. Get it X-rayed and magnfluxed before firing the first round through it. Then get some one who can read the x-rays to find occlusions. Even low pressure loads can blow out...

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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empirevr
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Re: Action face pits... [Re: DoubleD]
      #79429 - 26/05/07 10:17 PM

Hi DD,

Thanks, in that case im less concerned.

PM me your email address and I'll gladly send you photos. Bores cleaned up quite well in the end.

Thanks

Ben

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DoubleD
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Re: Action face pits... [Re: empirevr]
      #79450 - 27/05/07 03:03 AM

Quote:

Hi DD,

Thanks, in that case im less concerned.

PM me your email address and I'll gladly send you photos. Bores cleaned up quite well in the end.

Thanks

Ben



I take it that means you got x-rayed!

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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empirevr
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Re: Action face pits... [Re: DoubleD]
      #79459 - 27/05/07 05:55 AM

DD, no, what i mean is i can picture how barrels could be remedied, but i cannot figure how the action could.

Ok gun needs work, i accept this, why would anyone but a fool pay approx 10x the price for one which truly is only SLIGHTLY better...the bp guns are all far from mint, the mint ones commanding daft sums, even those which are 'false' having had the kind of work i am setting out to have done and then being offered as 'excellent' condition.

I have not been offered any bp double without pits.

If she needs it, will sleeve it to 577 n for bp, as its a Jones action and on face. Strong beast.

All the best,

Ben

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DoubleD
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Re: Action face pits... [Re: empirevr]
      #79484 - 27/05/07 01:33 PM

Quote:

DD, no, what i mean is i can picture how barrels could be remedied, but i cannot figure how the action could.




The breech face pit would be far simpiler to remedy, from tig welding to bushing in extremes.

Only one thing that can be done about occlusions, the weak point about old Damascus shotgun tubes and that is replacing.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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Rustyzipper
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Re: Action face pits... [Re: DoubleD]
      #79488 - 27/05/07 11:16 PM

I have no experience in the BP double. But after being close to machine work in the past and a former black powder rifle competitor, I would check out the Xray testing. Look to those advertising nondestructive testing and ask about it. Maybe it would be affordable. Good luck with the project. RZ

--------------------
NMLRA Life, NRA Annual,DRSS, .......

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empirevr
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Re: Action face pits... [Re: Rustyzipper]
      #79494 - 28/05/07 02:14 AM

Hi

Thanks guys.

Anyone wanting a bore pic to review just pm your addy!

All the best,

Ben

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DoubleD
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Re: Action face pits... [Re: empirevr]
      #79495 - 28/05/07 04:00 AM

Don't be misled. You can have a shiny smooth bore and not see occlusions. Occlusions are internal in the welds of the damascus lamination and can only be found by x-ray. You may not have any at all and have nothing to worry about, but you do need to check.

Pictures of the bore will prove little.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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empirevr
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Re: Action face pits... [Re: DoubleD]
      #79498 - 28/05/07 06:33 AM

DD

Im going the way of lining/sleeving in such a case.

Gun is coming cheaper than chips, and every gun, even at 6x the price, seems to need an alarmingly similar amount of work.

Thanks

Ben

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empirevr
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Re: Action face pits... [Re: empirevr]
      #79499 - 28/05/07 06:35 AM

Oh by the by......

Barrels alone are 5.5 lbs in weight, about 1/4" thick at the breech.

Ben

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Action face pits... [Re: empirevr]
      #79516 - 28/05/07 03:34 PM

Ben:

Pitted BP guns are cheap because they're pitted. Pits hammer the hell out of the price. I don't know, maybe all the nice ones have immigrated to this side of the pond, but nice, unpitted examples aren't that hard to find here. However, it's true that they're no longer cheap. Not long ago, a good friend passed on a mint, almost certainly unfired 1880s Purdey .577 with fluid steel barrels at $15,000. It didn't last long. You get what you pay for.

I have a friend, formerly the longtime owner and managing director of one of the well known London gunmakers, who still trades, and who shoots and deals pretty much exclusively in damascus hammer guns. I have other friends who shoot them a lot as well. I've listened for hours to the experts discuss the application of NDT on damascus barrels. The consensus seems to be that it's a waste of time. I wouldn't bother with X-ray either.

Still, these barrels are not a "do it yourself" project. You need to get them to a barrel-maker who is experienced with damascus tubes. You shouldn't have any trouble finding one in the UK, (I assume you'll have the work done there) as they shoot damascus there a lot, and don't have the irrational fear of them that Americans do. Let him decide what inspections and tests need to be done. If he thinks the tubes are a go, then have them re-proved to nitro, shoot it with the loads that it was originally intended for, and don't worry about it. If they're too far gone, then you have your sleeving plan to go forward with.

Good luck with it.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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DarylS
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Re: Action face pits... [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #79533 - 29/05/07 02:11 AM

The breech face of that gun is not just pitted, it is nothing but pits. Looks as if the gun was stored for several years in a vat of salt pork. Junk and only junk.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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empirevr
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Reged: 03/09/06
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Loc: England,but now Italy.
Re: Action face pits... [Re: DarylS]
      #79540 - 29/05/07 06:17 AM

Thanks 400.

Exactly my sentiments.

The breech face is awful Daryl, the bores look like the barrel didnt stay wherever the breech face did! They dont come close pits wise.

I already mailed it through to a Brit smith, he said either silver solder a disc on,having trimmed away the pitted part, or simply tig it, then recreate the face.

This i can see, its the barrel job that seems the pig.....the barrels hold the explosion of the powder, do they not? Then its them that worry me, noting the pitting being in the breech.

Shame about the breech, ah well........

All the best,

Ben

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