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dnovo
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Loc: Chicago & SE Wisconsin
An Observation on DR Prices and Scarcity
      #78431 - 11/05/07 10:29 AM

Am I off, or has the price of all but the most 'commom' DRs gotten very high recently? And, where have they all gone to?

One can still acquire 'production' DRs (Merkel, Chapuis, Krieghoff, and a few others) 'off the shelf' here in the US for prices that have kept pace with other firearm prices. H&H or Purdey or WR new builds? They are in the stratosphere, but have been for quite some time, so no surprise there.

But look at the prices of 'used' or vintage DRs. H&H? If it is a Nitro gun, in original condition and not rebarreled or rebored, $50,000 for one in 'decent' condition is the current 'ask' and they are still rather thin on the ground. Purdey? When was the last one you saw in any kind of decent shape, or saw at all? Nitro Purdeys are simply not out there. WRs? Sure, you can find the lesser grades for under $20,000. in fairly good condition, but not in the 470 and up range. Jeffery, etc? Same situation. Even rebored and restocked go for $11,500 up, and they seem to be snatched up quickly.

Okay, so how about Continental guns? The Sauers, Ferlach guns, and various German makes normally bring less than a DR fro Ole Blighty. But when was the last time you saw a good hammerless Nitro gun in decent shape under $10,000? And, if so, how long did it last?

I am also an O/U rifle collector. Most of those originate from the Continent. The price of those has gone up, and the flood that used to be around is drying up quickly.

I use George Caswell's site as a barometer of the current used market. But how many does he have on hand and how long do the good ones last? I just checked his site, and he shows 47 in stock. However, I'd guess that almost half are sold and waiting for his webmaster to remove them. I know that when he gets an exceptional gun (check out the Purdey in 303 he has listed) it goes out very, very fast. The 577s he had around the first of the year are all gone, and most have been removed.

Now check out GI, GA, or any of the internet sites. The number of vintage or even mildly used DRs seems to me to be far smaller than a year ago at this time, and what is there is either a fright pig, and ancient and well worn BP, or wildly overpriced. But even then, the selection is quite small.

Your thoughts? Am I just gettin paranoid, or am I perceptive? Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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AzGuy
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Reged: 23/03/06
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Re: An Observation on DR Prices and Scarcity [Re: dnovo]
      #78434 - 11/05/07 10:49 AM

Dave,

Paranoid or Perceptive?

Being the good lawyer (oxymoron?)that you are, probably both!!

I think you are right in terms of "less product" and "more demand". But you have to admit that YOU are part of the problem!! I'm sure your collection has done very well vs inflation/cost of living over the last couple of years. I'm not complaining, just jealous.

It is getting much more difficult to find "reasonable values" in the vintage DR market.

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500Nitro
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Re: An Observation on DR Prices and Scarcity [Re: dnovo]
      #78435 - 11/05/07 10:53 AM



"Am I off, or has the price of all but the most 'commom' DRs gotten very high recently?"

YES, and they will keep going higher and higher as there are only a limited number around. Everyone said they were "expensive" 5, 6, 7 years ago, they have at a minimum doubled in price if not quadrupled in price since then.

And, where have they all gone to?
My storage facility !!!
The sensible people are sitting on them.


The Army and Navy 500 Nitro listed on this forum last week
- a link to a rtailers web site. $50,000 ! I nearly had a heart attack. I sold one of mine 8 months ago, Jesus, I should have kept it and refinsihed it.


You mention Restocked. Americans have to get over this restock thing they have. If you break your DR's stock, you'd get it restocked ? YES. Therefore it is not an issue.
If the gun doesn't fit you, you get it restocked or sell it and get one that does fit.

Unless a gun is 100% mint, if a HIGH END (Purdey, H&H etc) gun came from the UK it would most likely have been "touched up", had a service or been lightly refinished in it's life - that is what occurs all the time.

IMHO, Keep buying now while the going is good.

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500Nitro
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Re: An Observation on DR Prices and Scarcity [Re: AzGuy]
      #78438 - 11/05/07 11:23 AM


Arizona

It is getting much more difficult to find "reasonable values" in the vintage DR market.

I have heard that 10 times a year for the last 7 years
- and all the while the price doubles every 5 years.

While the guns sit around not selling, sensible people
are buying them up.

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GeoffM24
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Re: An Observation on DR Prices and Scarcity [Re: 500Nitro]
      #78440 - 11/05/07 12:04 PM

This is something that seems to be fairly wide spread in firearms that babyboomers like. It also is true of many of the other items and collectibles they like such as houses and vintage cars.

Contrary to what we often see when an item is "hot" is the fallacy that things will always remain hot even though every single collectible known to man cycles, baseball cards, gold, cars, colts, shotguns, high end sports cars in the late 80s, houses, cowboy guns etc. etc.

When people think they could unload an item instantly and probably at a nice profit they pull the trigger quickly. Once they see prices go flat or drop buyers get FAR more selective in their buying and sellers get nervous and start to sell. Selective buyers and nervous sellers equal correction.

Whenever something is in short supply a few well healed buyers can seriously move a market. Eventually those collectors move on to something else, or pass away etc bring lots of guns back onto the market as well.

The problem that the vast majority of baby boomers have not thought through yet is that generation X is FAR FAR FAR smaller in numbers and when the time comes to sell the 2nd home, the McMansion, the Holland and Holland and the Colt SAA collection they will be selling into a seriously smaller market.

Whenever people start talking about HAVING to own something, it being a sure thing, not making any more real estate etc, head for the hills.

While I don't think the end will be tomorrow holding off on $50,000 doubles is probably a prudent move at this point.

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SteveH
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Re: An Observation on DR Prices and Scarcity [Re: GeoffM24]
      #78441 - 11/05/07 12:22 PM

Sell Hell, I'm taking it all with me!

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500Nitro
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Re: An Observation on DR Prices and Scarcity [Re: GeoffM24]
      #78442 - 11/05/07 12:23 PM

Geoff

I believe you are looking at it from a very US market
/ view point.


When I sell a gun, my market is the whole world, not Australia.

Lets look at the DR Market.

Started in the UK many many years ago.
Africa started the boom
India etc made it take off - Maharaja's
Australia, UK and US bought them back as demand took off.
US Demand outstripped supply so prices sky rocketed.

Major source of guns from India etc now dried up so prices
still going up.

Some old guns from people getting out still come on the market.

However, NEW markets to sell the guns to have opened up and some well heeled buyers in these markets pay good $$$ for the guns - and are not afraid to lay down 100k for a gun without batting an eyelid. (and No, I'm not listing them on here !).


Just my HO which I am happy for you to disagree with.

Edited by 500Nitro (11/05/07 12:24 PM)

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gatsby
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Re: An Observation on DR Prices and Scarcity [Re: GeoffM24]
      #78443 - 11/05/07 12:28 PM

Geoff,
You make many valid points but the double gun market is world wide and the market for the best guns will continue to increase. I don't think there is a need for all but a small portion of generationX to become interested in these guns to keep pushing prices upward. If I were to wait another ten years to see where the gun market goes I may be too frail to enjoy them. Who do I make the check out to?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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hoppdoc
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Re: An Observation on DR Prices and Scarcity [Re: gatsby]
      #78444 - 11/05/07 01:51 PM

A best quality gun??

Interesting but not a real concern to me.It appears to be a very very limited market with worsening supply and increasing demand from aging baby boomers.

The price of a best quality gun is just a fanciful notion that I have no possibility of scratching.My disposable gun $$ would top out at around 15K max and it obviously would require a braindead simpleton to sell me a best qualty rifle at that price.No problem, the 15K gun will kill animals just as dead if I do my part.

I habor no resentment for those fortunate to enjoy such finery and would love to touch and handle and shoot such "best quality" weaponry.Even if I had such rifles I doubt I could hunt with them due to a concern over damaging them and decreasing their value.Such rifles are really investments like fine art, not hunting rifles.

For those of you who have
"best quality" Doubles I admire you for being able to enjoy such fine weaponry!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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hoppdoc
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Re: An Observation on DR Prices and Scarcity [Re: hoppdoc]
      #78460 - 11/05/07 08:42 PM

Its all about supply and demand.The 427 corvette I ran around in which was $3500 list is now going for up to $100,000. The 69 375 horse 396 Camaro half that.The 426 Hemicuda I street raced against-$500,000-$1,000,000.

WOW!! If only--

I am not whining.I am so fortunate to have good health and am happy as a clam to have a self funded retirement fund with an occupation providing health insurance till 66 when I go on (horrors) govt insurance -Medicare!!

If you have a safe full of best quality rifles--enjoy!!
You are blessed indeed!!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: An Observation on DR Prices and Scarcity [Re: hoppdoc]
      #78463 - 11/05/07 10:00 PM

While I agree with most of what has been stated on this Forum, as I mentioned to one of our members in a PM, I think people are getting a bit out of hand on this. I was at the SCI show in Reno and have been to all of them in the past several years. Yes, the prices are going up for a English best rifles-- "if" it is in good condition. Also if it has been reworked or not, etc..I was told by several dealers this year including George, that the prices are going up about 5 to 10% per year--I was also in the market to buy one, which I did while at the show, so when dealers are aware you are going to purchase, they will "TELL YOU WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR" --as an example--this same guy, George, told me he would not purchase any European double other than Chapius--well guess what---that is what he is a dealer for...mmmmm..coincidence,,,I think NOT..

While at the show I came across several English best guns in .470 in the range of $15,000 up to 24,000. --yes--if it is a H&H or Purdey--the price increases dramatically, however for a Rigby, Westley Richards, Jeffrey, etc.--they were all in that price range, with the exception of one.. the gentleman had in on Consignment with Paul of Jeffrey --who wanted $32,000. --it was in good condition, but over priced--and guess what--when the show was over the gun was still there--

As to using the English Best guns used for hunting--I plan to use mine when I go back next year and every year thereafter--they are a work of Art, but a work of Art that was meant to be used, which I plan to do.. The last I checked, there are still plenty of gunsmiths out there that can fix any damage/problem you might come across.

Thank you

Ripp

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500Nitro
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Re: An Observation on DR Prices and Scarcity [Re: Ripp]
      #78465 - 11/05/07 10:21 PM


Ripp

Well said. Those with a vested interest will tell you what you want to hear.

That is why the forums are good - free opinions.

I am not a dealer, I sell rarely, when I want to sell, to who I want to sell it to, not just because someone offers a huge amount of money - and believe me, some people offer anything to get hold of a particular gun - my Original 505 Gibs for example.

I look at it from a buyers perspective more than anything
and what I have to pay for a gun seems to go up each year !

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GeoffM24
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Re: An Observation on DR Prices and Scarcity [Re: 500Nitro]
      #78476 - 12/05/07 12:17 AM

Quote:

Geoff

I believe you are looking at it from a very US market
/ view point.


When I sell a gun, my market is the whole world, not Australia.

Lets look at the DR Market.

Started in the UK many many years ago.
Africa started the boom
India etc made it take off - Maharaja's
Australia, UK and US bought them back as demand took off.
US Demand outstripped supply so prices sky rocketed.

Major source of guns from India etc now dried up so prices
still going up.

Some old guns from people getting out still come on the market.

However, NEW markets to sell the guns to have opened up and some well heeled buyers in these markets pay good $$$ for the guns - and are not afraid to lay down 100k for a gun without batting an eyelid. (and No, I'm not listing them on here !).


Just my HO which I am happy for you to disagree with.



Baby boomers and WWII are not just a USA thing. All the countries that did not have to rebuild after the war, like Australia, Canada, the US etc had baby boomers. Obviously Europe had a delay of up to 10 years.

All I'm saying is that things cycle, they ALWAYS cycle. Doubles have been in and out of favor numerous times in the past and they will be again in the future and that guy who can put down $100,000 on a double will put it down on something else.

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empirevr
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Re: An Observation on DR Prices and Scarcity [Re: GeoffM24]
      #78498 - 12/05/07 07:59 AM




500nitro;

"The Army and Navy 500 Nitro listed on this forum last week
- a link to a rtailers web site. $50,000 ! I nearly had a heart attack. I sold one of mine 8 months ago, Jesus, I should have kept it and refinsihed it."

So what is a boxlock toplever Army Navy .500 bpe version worth?

Are Lyon and Lyon as good as Army Navy?????

Thanks

Ben

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500Nitro
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Re: An Observation on DR Prices and Scarcity [Re: empirevr]
      #78499 - 12/05/07 08:04 AM



So what is a boxlock toplever Army Navy .500 bpe version worth?

Would need more info / pictures.


Are Lyon and Lyon as good as Army Navy?????

Well look at it this way, most Army / Navy's I see
are Webley's. Alot of Lyon and Lyon's I see are Webley's and / or other good makers (I think Lyon used whoever).

If you remove the name, then it is a Webley gun so in answer to your question, YES.

A mate had a ripper Lyon & Lyon 450/400 -one of the nicest 450/400's I'd seen.

FYI and IMHO, it is the US market that was so caught up on "names" that it took them quite a while to realise that Army / Navy, Lyon etc al were just as good as Jeffrey and others.

Just my HO.

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dnovo
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Re: An Observation on DR Prices and Scarcity [Re: empirevr]
      #78500 - 12/05/07 08:04 AM

Thad Scott and I were discussing his 577 A&N the other day. He is firm at his $47,000 price and has sent me pictures to back up his view of the condition and finish on this gun. Thad is an old time gun dealer and used to import doubles. He feels this gun is priced properly for the market, and he may be right looking at what other 577s in original condition, cased, are now bringing. It is a world of rising prices and less selection in DRs, but then, 'there are no pockets in coffins.'

Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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dnovo
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Re: An Observation on DR Prices and Scarcity [Re: dnovo]
      #78501 - 12/05/07 08:09 AM

I agree with 500 on this, A&N didn't build there own, and many are indeed W&S and those actions and their rifles are quite good. I am not 'hung up' on names, and I shoot all I own. I must say, however, that 'names' do bring a higher price not just in the US, but all over. When was the last time you saw an H&H or a Purdey sell for anything near another British 'best' in the same condition, whether sold here, in England, or on the Continent? I am not up on prices in OZ, but I represent a Sydney electronics mfg who collects Leicas and fine wines. He pays top dollars for both and more for a vintage Lecia RF than a 'no name.' As to the wine, he drinks it -- a lot of it. But, as he always assures me, that is what wine is for. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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500Nitro
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Re: An Observation on DR Prices and Scarcity [Re: dnovo]
      #78504 - 12/05/07 08:21 AM

dnovo

Was Thad Scott sober ?

Yes, I agree "names" get more money, I maybe should have emphasided that the US market in particular didn't value "no name" guns - A&N, Lyon & Lyon - until the level of knowledge in the market had got to a level that it was not the name that was so important on middle level makers but who the hell made the gun.

Leonard / Jeffry being another good example !

As soon as the market realised just what an A&N was (ie Screw Grip or PHV1), the values started to increase dramatically.

Edited by 500Nitro (12/05/07 08:25 AM)

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empirevr
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Re: An Observation on DR Prices and Scarcity [Re: dnovo]
      #78505 - 12/05/07 08:25 AM

Nitro500 and dnovo, thanks.

I am edging more and more towards a trip to India to find a gun, and have a look about also.

Is there such a thing as a bpe rifle without pitting in the damn barrel and/or chambers?

I know of one which im certain hasnt, its an H&H and it is pricey as hell.

What does a barrel ream cost anyway?

Ah well i shall keep looking........

Ben

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500Nitro
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Re: An Observation on DR Prices and Scarcity [Re: empirevr]
      #78512 - 12/05/07 09:05 AM

empire

I think you should look at other places other than India.


Is there such a thing as a bpe rifle without pitting in the damn barrel and/or chambers?
YES, Heaps, particulalry no chamber pitting - haven't seem much of that.

I wouldn't barrel ream a BP bores.

"I know of one which im certain hasnt, its an H&H and it is pricey as hell."
And in 2 years time it will be even more !

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dnovo
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Re: An Observation on DR Prices and Scarcity [Re: 500Nitro]
      #78514 - 12/05/07 09:46 AM

Thad SEEMED sober, but with his Southern drawl, who knows :-) I have bought a few guns from Thad (not a double, however) and the condition is usually as described and prices fair.

I did think he was quite high priced on the A&N or, to be blunt, I would have bought it since I would like to find a nice, original condition 577 in the right weight, etc. I just think he is too high on this one. Most of the other 577s I have seen have been in much worse condition or priced even higher. I he right? Who knows, and the market will have to decide.


And, as I have said before, those who deride a Webley action may be deriding their own rifles as a fair number of 'better' builders used their actions. Plus, my W&S 1920s vintage 250/3000 Savage (original chambering and like new) shots better than any other small DR I have tried or shot against. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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500Nitro
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Re: An Observation on DR Prices and Scarcity [Re: dnovo]
      #78518 - 12/05/07 10:06 AM


I met him once, hence the question.

He also tried to scew a mate of mine in the US
(misrepresented gun, shipped but then refused to take it back)
so my mate threatened to sue him so he backed down).

I don't like the guy, I don't like his descriptions (misdescriptions is a better word) and I don't like
how he prices things either.

And before everyone jumps down my throat, he buys some ger out of Aus which I have seen, handled etc so I know how it is descried here and then I see how it is described on his web site - and no mention of any faults !

I'll try to look at his site and see the 577 and then I'll pass comment.

"And, as I have said before, those who deride a Webley action may be deriding their own rifles as a fair number of 'better' builders used their actions."
RIGBY after they finished making the Rising Bite action
being the best example.

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empirevr
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Re: An Observation on DR Prices and Scarcity [Re: 500Nitro]
      #78526 - 12/05/07 10:44 AM

nitro500

Chamber pitting is what i get offered almost every time. First they say its fine, then oh no wait, there is pitting in the left chamber.......i found a good cape but am having a rethink as it went from one maker to another suddenly....besides doubles have their own 'repertoire' and i would surely like one.

Let me see what comes up, am considering auction buys now. A .577 bpe would go down a treat....

Ben

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