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hoppdoc
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How many hunters hunt Doubles in Africa??
      #77605 - 29/04/07 04:28 AM

Spoke with a friend last night who thought double rifles were rare as hens teeth in Africa due to their $$expense.I told him I thought they were much more common than he thought and not uncommon among those who hunted DG, whether PH or client.

I may be biased and incorrect on the number of hunters fielding Doubles on African hunts and DG hunts in particular.

Anyone have any opinions or facts from other forums??

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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EricCioe
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Re: How many hunters hunt Doubles in Africa?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #77607 - 29/04/07 05:22 AM

For what it's worth, Zayne Van Der Merwe of Zambezi hunters uses a Merkel double (probably a .470) when hunting elephant. I've seen him twice now on Versus' "Dangerous Game" series of tv shows. Both times, he was hunting with a client carrying a bolt. One of the clients was a PH in another part of Africa who speciallizes in bird hunting, and the other was just a regular American dude. Zayne and the birdhunting client got charged: client shot first quickly followed by Zayne (frontal brain shots that missed); upon Zayne's first shot, the bull stumbled some. Then one of the trackers fired, one more from the client, and another from Zayne, finished by an insurance shot from the client. Pretty decent TV, given what's normally on.

Anyway, at least one DG hunter uses a double, and is on TV with it once in a while.

--------------------
Kant, Goethe, Hamsun, Mann, & Heidegger. Ted Roosevelt & Aldo Leopold.

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ducota
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Re: How many hunters hunt Doubles in Africa?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #77612 - 29/04/07 06:51 AM

According to several articles on this matter, never were more big bore doubles produced and sold than today. The ever growing supply for ammos and components for these guns is another sure sign as it is the number of gun makers offering their products. Most of these doubles will no doubt be taken to Africa if only in a few occasions. Quantifying would be as interesting as tricky.

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hoppdoc
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Re: How many hunters hunt Doubles in Africa?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #77615 - 29/04/07 07:44 AM

I would hope on DG hunts the # clients carrying Doubles could be as high as 20% but that may be wrong.

All I hear is hearsay. VM,a hunting friend says there is no need and cites the $$ and the weight as negatives vs a bolt. I laugh and tell him he is too cheap and weak to have a Double!!

A casual friend and professional acqaintance GM took a 450 Dakota on his Ele hunt and faced many mock charges and was ??trailed/chased by a Ele herd for 400-500 yds after he shot his bull at ??spitting distance(8 yards). He feels Ele hunting is not for the meek at heart.

His 450 Dakota is on the gunrack and a 500 NE Double is supposedly in the works.He freely admits that with a charging Ele and heavy brush a Double is the only viable option.

I think there a alot of Doubles out there that will eventually go to Africa.They are just too much fun to hunt with and do otherwise.

--------------------
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Schamankungulo
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Re: How many hunters hunt Doubles in Africa?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #77616 - 29/04/07 07:57 AM

I know several who have taken doubles over .. I know of several PH's who use doubles , but I think the overwhelming majority are bolt guns both PH and client .. I would say that the PH would be better equipped with a double than a bolt if after DG ..

A double is my first choice , but my eyes prefer a scope .. But I justify that by saying that DG hunting is up close and personal , dont need a scope ..

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zimhunter
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Re: How many hunters hunt Doubles in Africa?? [Re: Schamankungulo]
      #77665 - 30/04/07 05:58 AM

I have made 8 trips to Zimbabwe with probably 24 weeks in the field total. I personally have carried doubles on 3 trips. The total number I have SEEN while hunting there not including my own is the sum total of 3. I have hunted dangerous game on 7 of the 8 safaris all over Zimbabwe. Doubles have not been very common in my experience, but that is only in Zimbabwe which is the only country I've hunted.

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DUGABOY1
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Re: How many hunters hunt Doubles in Africa?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #77666 - 30/04/07 06:09 AM

I think there are far more doubles in use today, than a few years ago! Both by PH, and client hunters, where DG is on the ticket. Back in the early 90s one seldom saw a double in the hands of either a pro, or client, but that has changed drasticlly, in the last couple of years. On safaris where buffalo, and elephant are on license I would say a full 50% of the client hunters now have doubles. I predict, that in the near future you will see many more first timers to dg hunting with doubles, because of the flood of reasonably priced doubles in some good chamberings, anlong with the recent availability of factory ammo, and componants.

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JPK
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Re: How many hunters hunt Doubles in Africa?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #77670 - 30/04/07 08:10 AM

Quote:

Spoke with a friend last night who thought double rifles were rare as hens teeth in Africa due to their $$expense.I told him I thought they were much more common than he thought and not uncommon among those who hunted DG, whether PH or client.

I may be biased and incorrect on the number of hunters fielding Doubles on African hunts and DG hunts in particular.

Anyone have any opinions or facts from other forums??



I have used my double for all of the buff and elephants that I have shot, plus a couple of other targets of opportunity that appeared when only the double was available.

Our own 500 Grains has used his double on elephants and buff too, also our host NitroX has used his 450 NE for elephants. Poster 450 NE No2 has used three doubles in Africa for elephants and buff.

My PH's both use doubles, Richard Tabor a 470 Kreighoff and Buzz Charlton who just switched from a RSM in 416 Rigby to a Brit 450NE I understand. Roger Whittall uses a Brit 450NE too. I have seen one other hunter hunting elephants with a double in 470. PH John Sharpe uses a double not sure what make/calibre, I think it is a Rigby 470.

Many Ph's that I have spoken with would love to hunt DG with a duble but just can't swing the $'s.

JPK

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hoppdoc
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Re: How many hunters hunt Doubles in Africa?? [Re: JPK]
      #77672 - 30/04/07 08:39 AM

Don't know how many are out there but most of the PH's with my upcoming safari in Chewore speak of extensive experience with Doubles.

Pardon me if I ramble abit

I think there are two kinds of DG hunters--
those that have Doubles and those that either don't know about Doubles or desperately want a Double but can't afford one!!!

One would assume the majority of the time when DG hunting it may not matter but I bet JPK was grateful he had a Double when his Ele charged. What great shooting! Would racking a bolt action may have caused problems with the f/u shot??

Pure guesswork but as for me make my DG gun a Double.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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JPK
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Re: How many hunters hunt Doubles in Africa?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #77688 - 30/04/07 01:03 PM

Hopdoc,

There is no doubt in my mind that I would not have gotten off the second shot that turned the elephant if I'd been using a bolt.

JPK

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Savuti_One_Shot
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Re: How many hunters hunt Doubles in Africa?? [Re: JPK]
      #77709 - 30/04/07 11:39 PM

Among PHs the choice between Doubles and Bolts is determined by essentially 2 factors.

1. The animals and terrain in which they hunt. There's a world of difference between playing tag with bull elephant in Chewore's thick jess vs chasing springbok in the Namib. I would expect to see many more doubles in the former circumstance.

2. Money. Most PHs are not independently wealthy, so tend to start their career with the best bolt they can afford. Often they'll upgrade to a double as finances permit, though it still would depend on what and where they usually hunt, as mentioned above.

As for clients, well, on my first "general bag" safari I used a 375 bolt on everything. It worked perfectly for all, including lion and 2 buff.
But when I went back to Africa in search of elephant I took a 470 double, which I carried, and a 416 RSM, carried by a tracker. It was purely an emotional choice. I decided that I was likely to kill only one elephant in my lifetime, and wanted to do so in the romantic, traditional style. I'm glad I did.

I think it's that certain something about the double that drives most of those clients who take them hunting. It's the same appeal as taking a deer with a flintlock. Doing it the way it used to be done. Nothing quite like it.

As for me, when I go back.......well, there's defintely a No 1 in 450/400 in my future!

SOS

--------------------
"I've this damned cannon." - Robert Wilson

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butchloc
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Re: How many hunters hunt Doubles in Africa?? [Re: Savuti_One_Shot]
      #77760 - 01/05/07 06:11 AM

i've used doubles for the last 10 years or so, but have very seldomly seen them otherwise. Most of my PH's are using either rugers or brno's, mostly in 416. All would love to have a double, but either they couldn't afford it or couldn't get another gun into the country (zambia for instance) I would expect to see a few more in circulation in coming years, just because of the price drop on new merkels etc. but i believe this will be more among clients than pros.

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Bramble
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Re: How many hunters hunt Doubles in Africa?? [Re: butchloc]
      #77785 - 01/05/07 10:14 AM

There will be one more when I get there on the 2nd June :-)

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GeoffM24
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Re: How many hunters hunt Doubles in Africa?? [Re: butchloc]
      #77786 - 01/05/07 10:17 AM

I remember hearing that about 2% of hunters bring doubles into Africa based on records of guns and ammo brought in. I don't know if it is true or not. Makes sense since I'm sure the vast majority of hunts are plains game hunts and lots of guys use a .375 H&H on Buff. Elephant makes the most sense for the big bores and I'm sure that Elephant hunters are a tiny fraction of total hunts.

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bulldog563
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Re: How many hunters hunt Doubles in Africa?? [Re: GeoffM24]
      #77788 - 01/05/07 10:40 AM

2 out of the four ph's I have hunted with have had a double and both of the guys who didn't were either an apprentice or fairly new to the scene. Seems like the vast majority of serious DG PH's either own or want to own a DR.

I used my 500 on Buffalo last year.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: How many hunters hunt Doubles in Africa?? [Re: bulldog563]
      #77858 - 02/05/07 12:33 PM

From personal experience and hearsay.

I have hunted on X safaris.

The first PH Wayne Jardine used a .416 Remington Mag. He was left handed.

The second PH is a member of these forums and has a .460 Weatherby Magnum.

Third, was Pierre van Wyk who on my cape buffalo hunt used a Winchester M70 in .458 Win Mag but his usual bolts were a .500 A-square and .460 (?) A-square. Pierre had used a double .500/.465 Holland & Holland as a "staff rifle" (believe it of not?!) when hunting as a PH with the H&H Safari Agency outfitters, plus was kitted out in "classic" H&H wardrobe. He said he would love a "vintage" double rifle if one at the right price was available. Churchill rifle makers also made a .500 NE with his "name" on it, I believe.

I am not sure what Karl Stumpfe who is also on these forums uses for DG hunts. He can chime in if he is near civilisation.

Paul Frodsham used a .416 Rem Mag BA.

These PHs of course may also have other rifles.

The only double rifle I have seen a PH own was Brent Hein with a Merkel in .470 NE. A client had just brought him his new DR from the USA.

Most PHs I have met would love a DR but realistically they are very expensive and on an average PH's income pretty much out of reach. Mostly is it the outfitter's themselves who have one, or wealthier PHs.

A story I was told by a junior PH who was working as a river guide on the Zambezi. He used to work for an outfitter who had an Italian gunmaker client, who used to hunt with the principal as the PH. At the end of every elephant hunt each year, he would hand over his DR to the boss as a tip. After four years the principal and all three of the employed PHs all had one of these rifles, and on the fifth year this junior PH was laid off due to safaris dropping off. He was VERY disappointed! Both a VERY generous tip but also very good PR for the Italian DR gunmaker.


As for clients, well some do and some don't. But NitroExpress.com has been doing its best to see the numbers increase. Infact in the first three months these forums concentrated on DRs, I counted members buying twelve of them, and some guys said because of reading about them here and getting very interested.

I know when hunting, one feels more confident with a big bore double in hand, especially when getting close to DG.

So we all need to keep preaching and converting ....

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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JPK
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Re: How many hunters hunt Doubles in Africa?? [Re: NitroX]
      #77874 - 02/05/07 10:23 PM

John,

I didn't put the name Pierre Von Wick together with the fellow I met in Zim this year who is a PH and is running the H&K Sijuria (sp?) camp with his wife - and doing some hunting too. The story about the 465/500 rings the bell. Nice fellow, looks and speaks like you would read a PH looks and speaks in many an African tale. Same guy?

JPK

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: How many hunters hunt Doubles in Africa?? [Re: JPK]
      #77909 - 03/05/07 10:05 AM

Quote:

Same guy?



Pierre van Wyk, not 'Pierre von Wick' . Pronounced "van Vake".

Sounds like the same guy. He was running a camp for HHK after the warvets took his Gwayi farm in 2002.

I haven't corresponded in a while.

Looks like the 'classic PH' and has considerable experience.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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JPK
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Re: How many hunters hunt Doubles in Africa?? [Re: NitroX]
      #78188 - 08/05/07 05:47 AM

NitroX,

Sounds like the fellow. I think I never made the connection because of the pronunciation/spelling issue.

I recall Pierre telling me that his email adress is available on the HHK website.

JPK

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albertan
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Re: How many hunters hunt Doubles in Africa?? [Re: JPK]
      #78199 - 08/05/07 03:07 PM

NitroX,

I hunted with Wayne Jardine in April of 2006 and he was using a .460 Weatherby exclusively. I believe John Sharpe uses a double when elephant hunting.

Regards,

albertan

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ozhunter
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Re: How many hunters hunt Doubles in Africa?? [Re: albertan]
      #78209 - 08/05/07 07:18 PM

PHs I know that have doubles:
Andy Shultz, John Creef, Mattew Stanton, Cliff Walker, Mike Payne, John Sharp, Zane Van Den Merwe, Peter Chipman, Rodger Whitall,N Duckworth, Wayne Clark, Mjr D Price, H Nichols, D Meridith, R Hoets, Robin Hurt, Ivan Cater, Johan Calitz, Mark Selby, Richard Tabor, Paul Smith and Andrew Dawson.

Edited by ozhunter (08/05/07 07:40 PM)

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BwanaBob
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Re: How many hunters hunt Doubles in Africa?? [Re: ozhunter]
      #78230 - 08/05/07 11:53 PM

My Cogswell and Harrison .475 did two trips to Zimbabwe, for elephant and buffalo, my Chapuis .470 did one trip and I am now planning a trip, probably for next year, with my Merkel .500 and Merkel 9.3x74R.

After selling the Chapuis .470 to a friend, he hunted Zim with it, last year, for elephant and another friend has hunted Zim several times with a .450/400 (can't remember make).

I would say that many doubles will, at same stage, be used in Africa and all are bought with the intention of making the pilgrimage to the Dark Continent!

--------------------
"White men with their ridiculous civilization lie far from me. No longer need I be a slave to money" (W.D.M Bell)

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