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John
.300 member


Reged: 23/01/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Manitoba, Canada
Rear sights and old eyes!
      #75353 - 02/04/07 09:44 AM

The title says it all, how do the more "mature" members that are reading this, cope with iron sights? I am 56 and planning my first African Safari for next year, the goal is a Buffalo up close, I have a Vaughan .470 DR purchased specfically for the task, I want to use the iron sights on this rifle and for this job I prefer them to all other sighting systems, but I have a problem:

I am short sighted and wear glasses, with them my long range vision is excellent, but in recent years I have had to use bifocals so I can read, now I have problem, when I lay my head on a rifle stock the rear sight is extremely blurred!

My wife used to work in an optromist office, she just told me that they made up a "reversed" pair of bifocals for a mechanic. Any one out there used these for shooting?

With a telescopic sight I can hold my own with anyone, but with iron sights it is another story. For example if I have to lay down and shoot a handgun from under a car I can not get the rear sight in focus due to my head angle and my accuracy goes to hell. I have found myself adopting a head high stance when shooting a handgun, this is OK I guess but when a Buffalo gets close and I swing a DR instinctively my head will be tucked on the stock and the rear sight blurred!

Looking for advice please. For the younger readers, pay close attention, for this will surely happen to you one day!


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Badger_Matt
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Reged: 29/10/06
Posts: 42
Loc: Simpsonville, SC
Re: Rear sights and old eyes! [Re: John]
      #75357 - 02/04/07 10:58 AM

John,
Sounds like you're ready. The rear sight and the target are supposed to be blurry. It's the front sight that must be crisp and clear. If your groups are good, you can shoot off the sticks and off-hand...be sure you share your photos when you get back.

All of that said, I'm scheduled for LASK/PRK in June so I can get back my distance vision.


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NE450No2
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Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: Rear sights and old eyes! [Re: Badger_Matt]
      #75358 - 02/04/07 11:36 AM

Find an eye Doc who knows about shooting glasses.

Take your rifle with you when you go to see him.
Clear that in advance with him.
If he will not let you bring your rifle to the office, find a new eye Doc that will.

If you cannot bring your rifle you will not get the correct lenses.


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Yogi000
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Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 265
Loc: New York, USA
Re: Rear sights and old eyes! [Re: NE450No2]
      #75391 - 03/04/07 01:22 AM

I must pipe in because I have an increasing problem related to this. And, although the front site should be in focus, I can say from expereince that if you essentially cannot see the rear site, your ability to line up the sites will go to pot and as John indicates: TOO blurred to shoot well.

One attempt at resolving this would be a lighted rear site utlizing a ghost ring and lighted front site so those of us suffering from dimishing close vision could use "iron" sites. My ability to see the front site is also decreasing. I can see far very well but my arms are becoming too short to see things that I hold in my hands to see. The problem is most enhanced in low light. Shooting my bow is now a day time activity and forget those dusk shots anymore.... boohoo. I know they have lighted sites for bow now, and it appears I will need to upgrade before next season...

I heard about a guy who went to an eye doc (a friend of mine) and the guy wanted to improve his vision for shooting. Well, the patient leaves, walks to the parking lot and pulls out his rifle and starts pointing it at distant things... This was in an urban environment. Well, within moments the police arrive with great alacrity and with considerable noise. Yes they did arrest this fellow. Luckily my friend the eye doctor was able to convince the police that the gentleman did in fact set up an appointment with him and he gave him glasses just minutes before so he could see to shoot better, so they dropped the charges. But the guy should NOT have 'tested out' these glasses with his rifle in the parking lot...

Aside from reverse bifocal glasses I ahve to believe there are better designed rear sites (and rear site / front site combination) for low light and aging eyes.

I hope this thread gets some good recommendations because this issue is a major one and growing...


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John
.300 member


Reged: 23/01/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Manitoba, Canada
Re: Rear sights and old eyes! [Re: Yogi000]
      #75416 - 03/04/07 09:05 AM

Thanks for the replies. I called my eye Doc this morning and explained my situtation, he can provide "Occupation bi-focals" these are used by mechanics, electricians etc so when you look up you can have the close in vision exactly the same as when you look down. The problem is that when you are looking through the bifocal lens your long range vision is poor, depending on the individual. Target shooters can have glasses made up to suit specific circumstances targets and range distance, that will not work for for me in this situation, as I must have versatility.

When my .470 arrives I have arranged to take it to my Doc and see it it is possible to have new glasses for "Occupational bi-focals" to be made up. It will be interesting to see if a compromise with new glasses will work. In reality I would rather keep my sharp long range vision and a overly blurred rear sight and trust to good rifle fit and instinctive shooting, based on lots of practice. (Ten rd a week from when the rifle arrives until Spring 08.

The target "Mr. Buffalo", target range, lightning, movement and time to take the shot may make my concern unfounded.

Rear sight design combined with the appropriate front bead will also have a bearing on the practical results. I am now thinking that the old English doubles were fitted with platinum line on the rear sight and an ivory bead for very good reason!


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John
.300 member


Reged: 23/01/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Manitoba, Canada
Re: Rear sights and old eyes! [Re: John]
      #84745 - 27/08/07 11:40 PM

This is a little late but here is an update. I visited my Optometrist and had a check up, there was really no change in my eyes, I had previously discussed my problem and had been invited to take a rifle along, at that time I was still waiting for the Vaughan .470 so I took my 9.3 Franz Sodia along.

The end result was that we increased the regular part of my lens in my left eye (I am left handed and shoot with my right eye shut) by .5 I have progressive bi-focals and I am short sighted. The end result was that my rear sight is better defined with no loss of my long-range vision.

I have just returned from Africa and harvested three trophies, an Impala, Waterbuck and Zebra in 5 days my first rd shot placement for all three was perfect, I was extremely pleased with the new lens.


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AzGuy
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Reged: 23/03/06
Posts: 388
Loc: Prescott, Arizona, USA
Re: Rear sights and old eyes! [Re: John]
      #84785 - 28/08/07 01:52 PM

John,

Congrats on your hunt...sounds fantastic. Please share photos and details.

Did you use the 470 or the 9.3?

--------------------
Hike the Grand Canyon, you will never be the same!


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John
.300 member


Reged: 23/01/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Manitoba, Canada
Re: Rear sights and old eyes! [Re: AzGuy]
      #84840 - 29/08/07 06:02 AM







All game was taken with the 9.3 x 74R using 286Gr Woodleigh RN SP at 2,200 fps. The two bullets on the left were recovered from the Waterbuck and weighted 227 and 276 grs. The last bullet (231 grs) was just under the skin on the further side of the Zebras chest, this shot almost lifted him off his feet, he crashed down and then staggered away for 20 yds where he collapsed and was dispatched with a .470 NE in his brisket at 4 inches range.


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NE450No2
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Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: Rear sights and old eyes! [Re: John]
      #84841 - 29/08/07 06:25 AM

John

Here is another option for your 470. I have been doing some testing with a Docter Optic red dot sight.

It is one of the the smallest red dots on the market. It is of very high quality.

It automatically adjusts for the different light conditions.

Take a look at one.


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John
.300 member


Reged: 23/01/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Manitoba, Canada
Re: Rear sights and old eyes! [Re: NE450No2]
      #84842 - 29/08/07 06:33 AM

The Docter Optic would do the job superbly, but I can't put one on an English DR! It simply wouldn't "be cricket!"

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enfieldspares
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Reged: 12/07/07
Posts: 36
Loc: Great Britain
Re: Rear sights and old eyes! [Re: John]
      #84900 - 30/08/07 03:22 AM

I don't know how familiar you are with "British" guns in general, but I hope so! I had a number of arms including a 303 SMLE and a 303 No4. I have had to sell the SMLE as with the mid-sight as fitted I could only see that blurred. Certainly not enough to shoot the rifle with as much consistent shot placement, and so accuracy, as I once could.

I have two fine BRNO ZKK rifles. One a 600 in .243 and the other a 601 in .270. These are early models with both a mid-sight on the barrel and a receiver mounted peep, or aperture, sight, on the rear receiver ring. Again I fold down the mid-sight and use the receiver sight.

The No4 is different. It has a rear mounted aperture sight mounted on what would be the rear "receiver" ring and a Mauser type action. With this I can still shoot. The eye fids the hole and if it is blurred it doesn't matter...indeed that is how it should be seen. A "ghost" ring as some would call it, I think.

I can also get good sight pictures with a Greener GP gun. That has a large "notch" on the front of its Martini action receiver. Again a little blurred but I can still get a good consistent sight picture.

My advice would be to consider a flip-up aperture sight on the tang of you double. Indeed I believe that one English maker actually had a patent for such a sight in the top lever itself. Or...to perhaps move the mid-sight on the barrel nearer the eye?

You could experiment with a piece of card stuck to the top rid or perhaps some sort or sight that could had an extended base to bring the leaf back nearer to the breech.

The simple solution...not the cheapest...would be a 1x or 1.5x telescopic sight! Another solution might be to enlarge the aperture on your mid-sight so that it is very large and like a half-moon. So that it becomes, in effect, like the bottom half of a "ghost" ring. Again experiment with a piece of card glued on.

I am, however, certain that Holland's or Paul Roberts (once Rigby now Jeffrey) would not be unfamiliar with your problem...and may have a solution already tried and tested.


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enfieldspares
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Reged: 12/07/07
Posts: 36
Loc: Great Britain
Re: Rear sights and old eyes! [Re: enfieldspares]
      #84901 - 30/08/07 03:26 AM

I also can't use a Winchester lever action with a mid-sight for the same reason! I guess that being in Canada there must be any amount of Long Branch made 303 No4 rifles to try the sight on?

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NE450No2
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Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: Rear sights and old eyes! [Re: enfieldspares]
      #84947 - 30/08/07 06:41 PM

John

I recently scoped one of my doubles, a British 450/400 3 1/4". I have had the rifle for several years. I wish I had scoped it the day I bought it. It has a S&B 1-4 with the illuminated Flashdot reticle.

I have taken deer, several pigs, black bear, 2 caribou, cape buff and bull elephant with iron sights. With the scope I have taken baboon, warthog, zebra, and lion.

I consider the scoped [with QD mounts] 400 double to be the best all round African DG rifle.

On a 450 to 470 double if I needed "help" with iron sights I would have a rear claw base with an Ernst Apel base and a Docter Optic red dot sight.

In the field the only thing that matters is proper shot placement.


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John
.300 member


Reged: 23/01/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Manitoba, Canada
Re: Rear sights and old eyes! [Re: NE450No2]
      #84967 - 31/08/07 12:24 AM

As always, lots of good input, thanks.

Rear apture sights or “ghost ring” work perfectly with “older eyes” and please don’t think I am half blind, it is just that I am trying to “fine tune” things. However I personally find the tradional rear V blade and bead the fastest for quick short-range shots. Fitting an aperture to older English DR would not be easy, but would improve things under some situations.

It has been pointed out that John Taylor advised moving the rear sight further forward, he is correct but I want to avoid gun smithing on my old rifle, also this would be a major job as my rifle only has a ¼ rib.

Some think it sacrilege to mount a scope on a DR but even John Taylor gives that his approval. I have done a lot of firing at night (Rabbit control from the back of a Land Rover in the UK when it was still legal to do so) with both iron sight shotgun and scoped .22 and the scoped rifle excelled when rabbits were in the fringes of the headlights. I can’t imagine waiting for a Tiger at night with a DR and iron sights, talk about a challenge, a scope under those conditions would be superb.

I can’t fault fitting a small “Red Dot” sight to a DR from a practical view, but in my opinion it would look very out of place.

I hunt with a nine three DR fitted with a detachable scope and an iron sighted .470 NE. When in Africa a few weeks ago I booked my PH for Buffalo next year, he saw me operate my rifles and made a comment that I should be prepared to take my Buffalo with the nine three as there could be occasions when the scope would allow a shot to be taken when the iron sights would not.

No argument first rd shot placement is critical, and we have a moral responsibility to see that we only take shots with in the capability of our skill and equipment. Hence my desire to maximize my performance with the iron sighted .470

Next year it will be my personal choice to pass up a shot with the .470 and switch to the scoped nine three if circumstances dictate or follow my dream and take a Bull at point blank range with the iron sighted .470 NE. He may score less than the Bull I pass up with my scoped rifle but so what! I know in my heart the magic of Africa would more than compensate and I will have filled a dream.

The solution, scope the .470 NE, at least for the moment, I will not do this.

In the mean time I will continue to keep fit and work on my equipment and skills and dream of the next African hunt.

John

Edited by John (31/08/07 12:27 AM)


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ozhunter
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Reged: 18/08/04
Posts: 1692
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Re: Rear sights and old eyes! [Re: John]
      #85001 - 31/08/07 06:54 PM

John,
I hope you have luck sorting out your eye glass and I understand your desire to hunt the Cape Buffalo the classic way with an open sighted double.
I also use Eye glasses but find the use of Bino's more of a hindrance.
You will most likely miss opportunity's with open sights but just make sure you have enough days at hand.
Which country are you hunting the Buff?
Good luck.


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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: Rear sights and old eyes! [Re: ozhunter]
      #85005 - 31/08/07 11:32 PM

Have you given peep sights any thought?
I've found that as my eyes get older that peep sights seem clearer than open V sights.
More important is that the front sight is clear, as any high performance target shooter will tell you.
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949


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470evans
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Reged: 30/03/05
Posts: 278
Loc: Texas, USA
Re: Rear sights and old eyes! [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #85006 - 01/09/07 12:02 AM

John,

Is your Vaughan the one from G&H? If so I'd like to hear about it and how it shoots. I looked at that gun.


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John
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Reged: 23/01/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Manitoba, Canada
Re: Rear sights and old eyes! [Re: 470evans]
      #85012 - 01/09/07 02:42 AM

Yes, that is the gun. I love her, she turned out to be a well used rifle that had been expertly refinished so I obtained a price adjustment. Appears to shoot well but haven't finished working up loads, will do some pressure testing on reloads this weekend. Shoots a shade low but my current reloads are slow, (105 grs IMR 4831) around 1950 fps and I am not increasing them untill I am set up to pressure test. Will also try a Hodgon powder. Rifling is sharp but bores lightly pitted, chambers are corroded but no problem with Jamison brass, with Federal factory ammo the cases swell a little which I don't like. The rear sight is also a replacment which may be why she is low. I had to have new strikers fitted and the hammers adjusted.

She is a real pussy cat to shoot and I didn't find the 11.5 lbs to heavy in Africa, but at that weight she gives me the incentive to keep fit.


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Rustyzipper
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Reged: 20/10/03
Posts: 83
Loc: North of the Zambezi, in Miser...
Re: Rear sights and old eyes! [Re: John]
      #85026 - 01/09/07 11:29 PM

Just an idea. Check out the thread on diamond front sights. Read it all the way through and pay special attention to Carpet Sahib and his experience will perhaps help. See page two here, diamond front sights. I'm saving up for one to fit my Valmet 9.3. It may help to brighten the image you see from the front sight and to put it on the target through a ghost ring sight. That's all I do with the ghost ring on my Marlin 45-70. The eye centers the image automatically. I use one on 22 LR to 45-70. Monday some squirrels are going to find out about that. Good luck. Rustyzipper.

--------------------
NMLRA Life, NRA Annual,DRSS, .......

Edited by Rustyzipper (02/09/07 12:15 AM)


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