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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Overstressed Rifling
      #73766 - 13/03/07 09:17 PM

There has been a lot of talk about the damage caused by shooting mono bullets in double rifles.
I'm interested to learn more about any "specific rifles" which have been damaged in this way.
Have any members here actually had this happen to their own double?
Has anyone handled a double with visible overstressed rifling damage?
If so could you please post details on the rifle and load?
Does anyone have photos of this type of damage?

The Holland double that was regulated with mono solids and killed a barrel set, do photos exist of this?

I'm not trying to prove or disprove the overstressed rifling issue here.
The idea is to try and gather some first hand information on the subject from anyone who has actually experienced it.


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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Overstressed Rifling [Re: 4seventy]
      #73767 - 13/03/07 09:52 PM



Give Graeme Wright a call.


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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Overstressed Rifling [Re: 500Nitro]
      #73773 - 14/03/07 12:12 AM

While I have never seen it.. I have visited with several "experts" who state it is very prudent not to shoot monolithic solids in older doubles especially. I visited with Paul from Jeffrey double rifles at the SCI show this year---he stated the metal used in the older firearms was not as tough as the metal used today and therefore they are more susceptible to damage from solids. I also visited with the Westley Richards shop here in my home town --they also cautioned against using them in older double rifles. Thank you.
Ripp


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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Overstressed Rifling [Re: 4seventy]
      #73782 - 14/03/07 02:55 AM

4seventy, There was a guy over on AR that had a Chapuis double rifle, that the ribs, and barrels seperated on. He sent it back to the factory, as the rifle was new. The Factory fixed the rifle, and sent it back to him! Two weeks later the barrels seperated again, so he sent the rifle back to the factory again. They called him on the phone, and questioned him as to what he had been shooting in the rifle. When they found out had shot Barnes Mono-lithic solids in the rifle they hit the cealing. They told him they would fix the rifle, but if he shot mono-metel bullets in it again, he was on his own.
According to the owner of this rifle,tey told him the bullets were too hard, and the sudden movement of the bullet in the thin barrels, the expansion of the barrel as the hard bullet traveling through the barrel over stressed the solder holding the ribs, and barrels together, causeing them to let go!

Also, 400NitroExpress, who posts here knows of this instance, and has personally examined one rifle with the over stressed rifleing! When looking down the outside of the barrels, along their length you can see the slightly raised steel over the rifleing, on the outside of the barrels. It is very slight rise, but can also can be felt with the fingers, when runing them down the length of the barrels. This last paragraph is what I was told by Mark, I didn't personally see it. And the thing with the Chapuis rifle was what was stated by the owner, but I can't remember if he posted a letter from Cahpuis, or not, since it has been three or four yrs ago!

I do not shoot most Monolithic solids in my double rifle regardless of age, except for the North fork CPS, and FPS,, and GS custom, with pressure rings, that do not allow the rifleing to engrave the solid body of the bullet, and the bullets are made of softer copper, not hard Bronze, like the Barnes. These bullets are so easy to push down the barrel thay can be pushed down the bore with a wooden dale rod, by hand, and the bullet will give higher velocity with the same load used with coventual bullets. ONLY the pressure rings are engravedby the rifleing, and rings are grouve dia, to seal the pressure behind the bullets.

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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LGF
.275 member


Reged: 27/04/05
Posts: 76
Loc: Kenya/Berkeley, CA
Re: Overstressed Rifling [Re: 4seventy]
      #73788 - 14/03/07 03:39 AM

A friend of mine has a circa 1919 Rigby .470 that he blew up a few months ago on a buffalo hunt. A strip of metal he described as 10-12 inches long and 1/4-1/2 inch wide blew out the side of the barrel. They never found it. The guy standing next to him was dazed from the blast.

Dunno who he took it to for repair in the UK, but he was told that monolithic solids in an old barrel were to blame. He had mix of Federal and Kynoch, and does not know which he fired. However, both use Woodleighs.


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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Overstressed Rifling [Re: LGF]
      #73794 - 14/03/07 04:58 AM

Quote:

A friend of mine has a circa 1919 Rigby .470 that he blew up a few months ago on a buffalo hunt. A strip of metal he described as 10-12 inches long and 1/4-1/2 inch wide blew out the side of the barrel. They never found it. The guy standing next to him was dazed from the blast.

Dunno who he took it to for repair in the UK, but he was told that monolithic solids in an old barrel were to blame. He had mix of Federal and Kynoch, and does not know which he fired. However, both use Woodleighs.




LGF, I don't think Woodliegh makes a mono-lithic solid! Superior uses monolithics in their custom ammo, unless you request something else! Federal 470ne are some times loaded with Trophy bonded solids, which are fairly hard! Even if this failier was not caused by the mono-lithic, I simply will not take the chance with a rifle that costs several thousand dollars! There are too many good bullets that are of proven design for double rifles, new, or old!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Overstressed Rifling [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #73795 - 14/03/07 05:10 AM

It is fallacy to think that Woodleigh FMJ solids are easy on doubles. They are very hard and their use should be minimized.

It is also fallacy to believe that monolithic solids are the problem. IMPROPERLY DESIGNED monolithic solids are the problem. Properly designed monolithic solids, such as those available from www.northforkbullets.com or www.gscustom.co.za, solve the problem and are gentler on barrels than Woodleigh solids.

All that being said, I have seen one rifle damaged by Barnes solids and another damaged by some BELL bullets made back in the 1980's.


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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Overstressed Rifling [Re: 500grains]
      #73796 - 14/03/07 05:27 AM


Woodleigh FMJ solids may be hard but they are also have a tapered design as per the original Kynochs and are very slightly less diameter than the SN's of the same calibre to take into account that they are made of steel.

Which kind of equates the whole argument unless the bore of a gun is undersize for the calibre.


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clark7781
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Reged: 28/10/04
Posts: 612
Loc: Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
Re: Overstressed Rifling [Re: 500Nitro]
      #73800 - 14/03/07 06:23 AM

Who makes the BEST solids for the .577 NE (.585")??? I have Woodleigh and will not use Barnes solids.

What "good" solids other than Woodleighs could be used? I do not think North Fork or GS makes bullets for the .577...

--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE


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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Overstressed Rifling [Re: clark7781]
      #73803 - 14/03/07 06:32 AM

Clark,

North Fork does not make bullets above .474".

GS Custom makes solids for the .577 NE.

You are pretty much limited to Woodleigh and GS Custom.

_____

500nitro,

The Woodleigh solids I have are tapered in the nose area only; not in the shank that touches the barrel. And they tend to generate more barrel heat and more fouling (subjective observation) than GS Custom, so I do not think that reducing bullet diameter by 0.001" solves the problem. If bullet size were reduced sufficiently to solve the problem, then blowby would be an issue.

Woodleigh are a good bullet, but the fact is that they have been technologically surpassed. That does not mean people should not use them. In fact I shot some Woodleighs just last week.


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BigFiveJack
.333 member


Reged: 25/12/05
Posts: 256
Loc: Half hour North of Tampa Bay F...
Re: Overstressed Rifling [Re: 500grains]
      #73818 - 14/03/07 10:48 AM

Paul,

www.gscustom.co.za makes solids in 600 NE too just as a point of information.

I if I had the 585 cal rifle that you and Doc 52 have I'd go with them.

--------------------
Cordially,
Jack

NRA Endowment Member
DRSS Member


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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3595
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Overstressed Rifling [Re: BigFiveJack]
      #73833 - 14/03/07 02:09 PM

There is a vintage bolt-rifle belonging to a friend of mine in Darwin, that shows evidence of the rifling on the outside of the barrel. I have tried to get photos of this in the past, principly to end a long argument with 'Ray' over on AR a couple of years ago, but my friend is understandably reluctant as it might possibly upset a future sale.

The damage is not visible unless the barrels are held up to the light, but it is definitely there. I believe the rifle was already damaged before my mate acquired it.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Overstressed Rifling [Re: Marrakai]
      #73839 - 14/03/07 03:37 PM

Quote:



The damage is not visible unless the barrels are held up to the light, but it is definitely there.




I have seen exactly the same thing (on a different rifle), although it did not seem to affect how the rifle shot in that instance.


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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39896
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Overstressed Rifling [Re: Marrakai]
      #73842 - 14/03/07 03:41 PM

With regard to "solids" or FMJs. You can't have it both ways IMO. If the jacket is too soft or too weak you get penetration/break-up issues. If too hard you get the claims of being too hard on barrels. The raised ribs on some modern designs might fix that if they shoot well in one's DR.

But in the end, how many solids/FMJs is one shooting in one's rifles? Most times we use the SPs and FMJs for backup. Other than elephant most use a SP as the primary projectile. And realistically how many elephants is a modern hunter likely to shoot in a lifetime today. Cullers seem to use other rifles on different criteria too. SPs can be used for practice and are cheaper too.

But I know I won't be using a convential mono-metal bullet in my vintage DR. I would use a true raised rib mono though especially if they as "looses" as claimed. But I don't have any problem in using Woodleigh FMJs for the amount of actual hunting use I will be using them for. JMO.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39896
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Overstressed Rifling [Re: NitroX]
      #73843 - 14/03/07 03:43 PM

PS If anyone could find good photos of rifling damage for NitroExpress.com's "archives" it would be great. To illustrate the problem for future reference.

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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2437
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: Overstressed Rifling [Re: NitroX]
      #73847 - 14/03/07 04:31 PM

A field check you can do to find imperfections--raised rifling--hold a piece printer paper on the barrel with your finger. Slide the paper up and down the length of the barrel with your finger and you will feel the imperfections.

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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JTOMLINSON
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Reged: 16/02/05
Posts: 188
Loc: York, England
Re: Overstressed Rifling [Re: LGF]
      #73863 - 15/03/07 02:02 AM

LGF

If the initials of the person to whom you refer as owning the .470 are RB then the Rigby is with Trevor Proctor in Wilmslow, England, for a new set of chopper lump barrels. I have seen the blown barrel, it is pretty spectacular and was fortuitous that no one was injured when it blew out.

JT


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LGF
.275 member


Reged: 27/04/05
Posts: 76
Loc: Kenya/Berkeley, CA
Re: Overstressed Rifling [Re: JTOMLINSON]
      #73871 - 15/03/07 03:43 AM

JT

that is indeed the rifle; it has quite a history. Both guys involved were extremely lucky.


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Gerard
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Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 44
Loc: N/A
Re: Overstressed Rifling [Re: LGF]
      #73876 - 15/03/07 04:37 AM

Bear in mind that a jacketed lead soft point is just as hard on a barrel as a jacketed lead solid. With both types the bullet will compress lengthwise under pressure and try to expand radially. This adds to the pressure of engraving the bullet and on the barrel wall as the bullet moves down the bore.

Drive band bullets, solids as well as expanding, resist lengthwise compression almost completely and therefore do not add to the pressure on the barrel wall through radial expansion. The shaft of the bullet is not engraved to any significant depth, only the drive bands are pushed aside by the rifling.

An easy test. Take the temperature of a double that has not been fired for a couple of hours. (Lay a standard freezing point to boiling point stick thermometer on a barrel next to the top rib.) Fire four shots (two shots per barrel) with jacketed lead core bullets, within a timed minute. Put the rifle in the shade and lay th thermometer on the barrel with the mercury at the breech end. Check the temperature a minute after shooting. Let the gun cool to the start temperature and do the same test with drive band bullets. I have not done this with a double but I have done it with a bolt rifle. Anyone want to place bets on the outcome?


This does not mean that all shooting with lead core bullets must cease immediately. Just that the life of any rifle is finite. Sooner or later it comes to the end of that life. Sometimes sooner and sometimes later. The choice is always yours.


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Safarischorsch
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Reged: 28/02/04
Posts: 98
Re: Overstressed Rifling [Re: 500grains]
      #73886 - 15/03/07 05:47 AM

That is the point 500gr...

Or this ones:
http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/585/577-Tyrannosaur-Loads.htm


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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: Overstressed Rifling [Re: Gerard]
      #73889 - 15/03/07 06:33 AM

Gerard--

I will agree that banded bullets should be easier on barrels,even those with modern steels.I just have never understood why a bullet of lead/copper should wear out any barrel of modern steel---. It would seem the powder would be a major culprit, like with the 30-378 Wby or the 264WM, etc.

Obviously, it is what it is and that is the truth irregardless of such logic.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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Gerard
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Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 44
Loc: N/A
Re: Overstressed Rifling [Re: hoppdoc]
      #73893 - 15/03/07 07:20 AM

hoppdoc,
Look at it like this. There is wear on both the bullet and the barrel. If you could fire a thousand shots, using the same bullet and a new barrel for every shot, you would have a very sorry looking bullet and a heap of pristine barrels. It is a matter of repetitive use and the lower one can hold the temperature and the pressure, the better. With doubles, there is the additional factor of the expansion of the barrel that accompanies the bullet, some more than others. With bolt rifles, it is of lesser consequence. At worst the rifle can throw the sights. With doubles, the assembly is more intricate and fragile.

As for wear of one metal on the other: In the manufacturing process most bullet manufacturers use carbide tooling that is much harder than barrel steel. Tooling wears out and that is under conditions optimised for tool life, with copious lubrication and heat control. There is precious little of that for the trip the bullet takes down the bore.

We are leaving for the Aim Show in Johannesburg shortly. Back on Tuesday.

Edited by Gerard (15/03/07 07:36 AM)


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Savuti_One_Shot
.300 member


Reged: 24/01/07
Posts: 139
Loc: Florida
Re: Overstressed Rifling [Re: Gerard]
      #73897 - 15/03/07 07:41 AM

Let's not forget that Woodleigh solids are STEEL jacketed with a copper wash on top.
Granted, it's not tool steel, but I doubt that they are as innocuous to the barrel as softs.

SOS

--------------------
"I've this damned cannon." - Robert Wilson


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