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How do you keep the strikers away from the pins?
I presume by pins you mean firing pins?
The "strikers" and "firing pins" are the same item are they not?

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As usual you are absolutely correct, and if we don't understand the meaning, without it, we can give the exact terminology for every piece. To be correct, the piece in a "HAMMERLESS" rifle, you refere to as a hammer, is, in fact, called a tumbler, not a hammer, but origenaly it as called a striker, because the fireing pin was part of the tumbler. This was called a DOG TOOTH striker, and was simply a pertrusion on the nose of the tumbler that went through a hole in the breech to contact the primer. The body of this piece was only called a tumbler, after the the pins were seperated,from the main body of the striker, and the body of the origenal "STRIKER" became a "TUMBLER"! The external "HAMMER" was origenally called a "COCK", so either is correct, if one needs to nit pick! The fact is, 90% of the people who read this couldn't care less, or would even know the difference!

I edited my post to reflect this terminology, if that is absolutely necessary, though I don't think it makes the meaning of the post any clearer!

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..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Mac,
The intercepter I was referring to is the one meant to help prevent accidental discharge by blocking or catching the HAMMER/S fall before it reaches the firing pin/s when the safety is in the on position.
Usually called HAMMER intercepter or interrupter.
Some versions still have the iterrupter in place even with the safety in the off position.

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The most common type of intercepter is one that is in place whether the safety is on, or off, and is moved out of the way by a long extention on the trigger it's self, that moves it out of the way when the trigger is pulled, sort of like the system in Ruger Black Hawk pistol, that is moved in between the hammer and the pins, only in reverse. This piece had two purposes, one was to make the rifle safe from accidental sear disengagement, and two to avoid doubleing from very heavy recoiling rifles. Now let's be CORRECT, the HAMMERS you refere to above are in fact called "TUMBLERS"

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The intercepter which helps prevent double discharge is sometimes called a sear interceptor and performs a different task, depending on the type of action and whether single or 2 triggers are fitted.

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Yeah, a double discharge leaves the second barrel "out of action" regardless of whether a hammer intercepter is fitted or not and could cost a life!
Any gun that doubles should be fixed!

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Also correct, but a rifle that doubles, doesn't do it, till it does do it, and that may be at the wrong time. Hopefully, you will still be alive to have it fixed!

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..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Now let's be CORRECT, the HAMMERS you refere to above are in fact called "TUMBLERS"

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Mac,
Yes indeed, and I did try to convince you of this fact back in Dec in a post about Blaser and Krieghoff doubles.
Your post referred to...."hammers" as "(strikers)"
and in my reply I attempted to correct this by including in my post......"hammers (tumblers)"

In this "current" thread you were clearly talking about the pin and striker being two different parts when in fact the firing pin and the striker are actually the same thing.

Also, manufactures DO use both words, hammer and tumbler to describe that part in question so it is quite acceptable to refer to a tumbler as a hammer or vice versa when dealing with doubles.
Same goes for strikers and firing pins.

It is however, incorrect to refer to hammers as "(strikers") if the gun is fitted with firing pins as seperate parts.

So indeed to avoid confusion lets get the terminology correct.
Strikers - firing pins.
Tumblers - hammers

If the old hammer doubles had hammers which were really called cocks, perhaps the true description of a "hammerless" gun would be "cockless"!!

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This is fact, however, it is exactly the same thing as the intercepter that blocks the "TUMBLER", and both are actuated by the trigger, whether single or double! This SEAR BLOCK is also the safety on some doubles, and in that case is not intended to avoid fireing when the rifle doubles, but simply avoids you accedently foreing the rifle by pulling the trigger. This type of safety is not good, because they sometimes fire when the safety is disengaged.

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No, it is not exactly the same but is actually totally different.
I was referring to a sear interrupter which in some cases is fitted to prevent double discharge as a result of the shooter giving the SINGLE trigger an involuntary pull with the resulting double discharge.
Its function is to disengage the trigger from being able to release the second tumblers sear so if the trigger is pulled involuntarily a second time it cannot release the tumbler.
I was definately NOT referring to the basic SEAR BLOCK SAFETY which is a common system fitted to many boxlock guns and usually does nothing more than attempting to stop or block trigger movement.

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If the old hammer doubles had hammers which were really called cocks, perhaps the true description of a "hammerless" gun would be "cockless"!!

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BWWWWWWWwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww HAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaa!RONWLMAO

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..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Butch Searcy was building them on Ruger Red Labels and Browning SxS shotgun frames. Not sure if he still does or not.

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Butch Searcy only built one double rifle on the Red Lable, and did not want to build that one. It was made at the insistance of Ross Sefried, and Butch told me he wouldn't build another O/U double rifle for anyone! There is a man in Colorado, who is Building double rifles on Red Lable actions! His name is Yale, and if anyone is interested, Ray knows him and can give you a contact number.

Searcy's early doubles were built on Browning BSS actions, that were re-heat treated, and had a third fastener added. The first ones built for himself. The ones built for sale were only available in 470 NE to start with, and had the single selective trigger of the Browning shotgun action. They were later made with double triggers, and they sold for the princly sum of $3000 USD. There is one of these BSS doubles around that has had over 1000 rounds of 470NE fired through it, and it is still tight! Today Searcy doubles are built on his own actions, both box lock, and side lock!

The one who was building double rifle on the Red Lable, was the German born , Paul jeager,shop head of a large gun dealer in Pinn USA. The mono-blocks, and revievers were sold to him dirrectly from RUGER already fitted. Paul fitted 375 H&H barrels in them, and sold them for $1900 USD in the late seventies, or early eighties! The red lable is a strong action, but has one draw back! The buttons that serve as trunions are a molded part of the reciever it's self, and a little wear and they are loose. Where a henge pin is hardened to very hard, the Ruger trunion buttons are no harder than the action material, and are prone to wear. They can only be tightened by tig welding to build up the trunion, then refit! I agree with 4seventy, if the pressures are kept low, and much care is taken to lubricate the trunion buttons, and hooks, properly then they are OK, but I would rather have hardened replacable trunion buttons, or henge pin. The "GOLD LABEL" is the S/S and has the better, replaceable, hardened cross henge pin, and lump hook! I think the rumbelings about Ruger building a double rifle on this action are smoke, or at least way down the road.


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..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

Edited by DUGABOY1 (28/01/04 07:14 AM)

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Here is a Browning BSS in 450/400 3".

Most of the pics are of the barrels though, not the whole gun or the wood. Seller says its stock Browning wood so nothing special.

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The rifle from your link seems to be done as liners in the old shot tubes, judgeing from the picture of the muzzel end picture! I would be real worried about how this rifle was regulated, or if it was at all! The removal of the express sight, and the addition of an adjustable ghost ring sight indicates an attempt to fix a sighting/regulation problem to me! This rifle looks well done, but silk, and lace aren't exactly what regulates a double rifle ! The rifle is chambered for an excelant cartridge, and has selective ejectors, and if it shoots properly, is worth the $3900 USD, if it doesn't shoot properly, then it is simply a start to build a double rifle, and not worth the heavy price for gun parts!

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..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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But, the Red Label didn't come out untill 1977, so it would be very hard for someone to be building double rifles out of them in the sixties.

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Crazyquik, you are absolutely right on the year of introduction, of the Ruger Red Label, so barring devine intervention, Pual couldn't have built a double rifle on that action till after 1977!

In fact the first ones were 20 ga blued revievers, and the 12 ga didn't come out till 1982, and the 20ga/12ga stainless wasn't available till 1985

Now that my memory is refreshed, ( Alzhimers desease is hell) still all the things I posted are true, if the dates were off, depending on my 67 yr old memory!

PS: I edited my post above, to reflect the dates Crazyquik brought my attention to!

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..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

Edited by DUGABOY1 (28/01/04 07:22 AM)

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The red lable is a strong action, but has one draw back! The buttons that serve as trunions are a molded part of the reciever it's self, and a little wear and they are loose. Where a henge pin is hardened to very hard, the Ruger trunion buttons are no harder than the action material, and are prone to wear.

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Mac,
While it is true that the trunions are no harder than the receiver material, your statement is a bit misleading.
The fact is, that, regarding the stainless Red Label guns,
the receiver is incredibly hard and as such the trunnions are also incredibly hard!
How hard is incredibly hard you may well ask.
Well they are so hard that to fit bushings for the strikers the only way to machine the action face is to use EDM or Electric Discharge Machining as normal tooling is not in the race!
They are so hard that they are capable of shattering a hardened center punch!

If you want to know how hard they really are take a stainless RL action to an experienced engraver and ask him to to cover it with rose and scroll!
Hope you can fight!

Sure you could have the receiver anealed for machining or engraving and then get it rehardened but that process brings problems of its own.

The RL receivers are hardened RIGHT THROUGH the steel.
Many other actions have case hardening which is no more than a surface hardening of a few thousands of an inch depth on the outside of steel which much softer underneath!

As far as the hinge pin being integral to the action frame being a drawback, you are correct as far as tightening a loose action goes, as the job is not as straight forward as with an action that has a renewable hinge pin.
But the job can still be done.

One of the most highly praised and respected SxS double rifle actions is the long bar Webley and guess what?
Its hinge pin is an integral part of the action too!

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The rifle from your link seems to be done as liners in the old shot tubes, judgeing from the picture of the muzzel end picture! I would be real worried about how this rifle was regulated, or if it was at all! The removal of the express sight, and the addition of an adjustable ghost ring sight indicates an attempt to fix a sighting/regulation problem to me!

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I dont think that gun is built on sleeved shotgun tubes.
The frame is 12 gauge and the external diameter at the muzzels looks too small to be 12 g.
Also the width of the rib is too wide at the muzzels for the barrels to be 12 g diameter.
If they were still shotgun tubes the rib and the space between the barrels at the muzzels would be narrower.

I think the muzzels have "undercut" crowns and this gives a similar appearance to sleeves.
I think the gun has "proper" barrels rather than just sleeves fitted inside the shotgun tubes.

Regarding the removal of the rear sight, this is common if a peep is used and if the rearsight cannot be lowered or folded down.
Trying to use a peep or ghost ring with a fixed standing rearsight still in place is a real pain!

Edited by 4seventy (28/01/04 12:40 PM)

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There is a man in Colorado, who is Building double rifles on Red Lable actions! His name is Yale,

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Mac,
I think I read an article on a Red Label built by this fellow.
It was a 20 g frame and the barrels were chambered in 450 No2 NE.
I recall thinking at the time that the 450 No2 was a pretty large dia case to use in that little 20 g monobloc despite the cartridges low pressure.

I also recall being a bit shocked by the shooter(who was not the owner or the maker of the gun) who wrote the story.
He mentioned that the gun had been restocked using high grade wood and that the checkering was quite finely done.

But this guy was shooting the thing wearing several bloody big rings on the fingers of his forehand and I couldn't help wondering what that fine checkering looked like after the test was completed!



Edited by 4seventy (29/01/04 11:41 AM)

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There is a man in Colorado, who is Building double rifles on Red Lable actions! His name is Yale,

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