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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Bowhunting + Bows, Spears & Knives

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Omnivorous_Bob
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: Bramble]
      #112696 - 27/08/08 03:20 PM

Bramble, I agree with you. Also, there are some SHARPLY contradicting firsthand accounts from some (in my book) credible sources of some "famous", or infamous, bow hunting elephant kills, alleging such things as multiple kneecapping shots, etc, before the arrow flys and cameras roll, and then again afterwards.

I also agree with the standard of killing your quarry as soon as possible. I’m all for making the stalk more challenging, finding that ‘perfect’ specimen for your goal, getting closer than your last hunt, etc.

For me my ego and the “finding yourself via hunting” ends where the animal’s suffering begins.

Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"


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Ben
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #112704 - 27/08/08 05:28 PM

There have definitely been some dodgy incidents involving bowhunters and elephant; two, that I can think of. It is part of bowhunting history, and bowhunters condemn these infamous happenings. Has anything dodgy ever happened with riflemen and elephants?

As a keen bowhunter and a keen big-bore rifleman, I understand and sympathise with the views held by both camps. Unfortunately, bowhunters exist who shouldn't be doing what they do. And the same is true among riflemen. Equally unfortunately, bowhunters exist who "snob" riflemen, recounting instances of trigger happy gentry sending buffalo away with numerous projectiles in the face and belly; and riflemen exist who condemn bowhunters as being cruel and inflicting lingering deaths. Neither view is fair, and both fail to account for what I believe to be the majority of both bowhunters and riflemen who actually respect their game and treat it appropriately, administering quick and clean deaths.

However, back to the bowhunting of elephant: if the arrow is put in the right place, it will kill the elephant as fast as a bullet or three. If it is not placed properly, per chance, then the client and the guide must and do realise that the wounded elephant needs to be shot with the back-up rifle, in which case no undue suffering results anyway.

Yours for unity among sportsmen and respect for the game,

Ben


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Bramble
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: Ben]
      #112770 - 28/08/08 07:27 AM

Ben
I absolutly agree that there have also been some terrible acts perpetrated by "riflemen" and doubtless will continue to be.
I condem them just as heartily. There is one famous PH whom every time he releases a video I root for the animals.

I am lucky enough to number some PH's amoungst my friends so sometimes get the unsanitised version.
I got the real story of a large game hunt with a pistol recently so different from the published (elsewhere) version that I could have wept for the poor bloody beast.

Much of the manner in which game is harvested by the majority of tourist hunters leaves me cold.
However I accept that it is an industry that is driven mostly by client expectations and if we were to return to the grand old days of hunting then the industry would be 10% of its size. The 8 animals in 6 days safari is what keeps the industry alive. There is only one way to acchieve that as some know.

In that regard I do not solely blame bow hunters for the situation that exists vis blinds, waterholes etc.
What is apparent however is that even a relitivly poor shot and unfit hunter can be got within 100 yds of a quarry by bakkie and make a kill. Modern rifles are so accurate that from a rest 1/2" is easily obtainabe for the compitant and a kill zone shot easy for the incompetent. Even bad shots with modern rifles usually incapacitate to such an extent that a follow up (either by the client or PH) is fairly sure. It isent hunting really, but, if you squint your eyes just enough, it may pass.

Let me state that I marvel at the skill of a good bowman. I have tried it a couple of times and it is very difficult.
Now there's the rub. A tiny percentage of those that try it are compitant, hence the 20-30 yard blinds at water. I just cannot squint that much.

I happent to like longbows very much and was once privilidged to try a replica of a tudour longbow at 150lbs draw weight. (They must have been so strong from continual practice).

I would like to thank you for being prepared to discuss this matter. I have seen other conversations about this matter elsewhere that just descend into mudslinging.

I am quite prepared to conceed Ben that you and a few others may be the exceptions, like Bell and his .275. However for the main the shooting of bows at animate targets should IMHO be confined, in accordence with the English tradition, at Frenchmen

Regards


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9.3x57
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: Bramble]
      #112772 - 28/08/08 08:03 AM

We all have personal preferences.

The older I get, the less interest I have in backed-up hunting in a general sense. As hard as I try, I simply can't get revved up at the notion of hunting critters alongside a fellow who will take care of things if I foul up. My least-prized trophies are those shot in the presence of another guy who was holding a gun.

Now, mind you, I am not condemning the industry, individuals or traditions of this sort of hunting and in fact I sort of applaud it, as it has had wonderful results for the maintenance of game populations of many species. I am merely stating my personal preference in hunting. I like to scout, hunt and kill by my lonesome, or with friends as a team, but not as a backed-up shooter.

This leads to one of my biggest problems with bow-hunting elephant, the topic at hand. The one thing I know about it is that it is almost exclusively rifle-supported hunting in total and in spades.

Meaning, the whole affair is somewhat meaningless TO ME, even less so than when done with a rifle, as the fellow with a rifle has a much better chance of clinching the deal himself, by himself and without any assistance from the Second Gun. With a bow {tho it may be technically, highly lethal ballistically-speaking} I bet many, many large dangerous critters arrowed are killed with a rifle. Sticking a critter with an arrow all the while being fairly certain a gunshot will follow would personally leave me completely empty.

If a rifle is used to make a kill possible with a bow {by hobbling or crippling it}, that is a different thing, and it is completely shameful in my opinion.

Those who possess the skill, work within their own known limitations, use a proven, sufficiently-lethal bow and take on an elephant alone with said bow have my utmost respect. I suppose such fellows are exceedingly few, if they exist at all.

I am still wondering how many safari-hunted elephant die with a bullet from the pro in them...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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rscott
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #112790 - 28/08/08 01:08 PM

Bramble,
got a good chuckle out of that last sentence.


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Ben
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: rscott]
      #112814 - 28/08/08 05:19 PM

That's a fair point about personal preferences. We all have them. One of mine is that, for some strange reason, I prefer to hunt buffalo with open-sighted rifles - anything else just doesn't feel quite right to me (bow aside). That said, my friends enjoy their scoped rifles, and we all get along.

Aside from these philosophical ramblings, you are correct that hardly any bowhunters have hunted elephant without rifle backup; Bill Negley is the only one, I believe.

Although the great Howard Hill committed a few sins back in the '50s whilst filming an African bowhunting movie - which has been a case in point for us bowhunters to learn what not to do - he did manage to shoot dead an attacking lion that he encountered whilst out for a lone stroll, with his longbow. He had no rifle, and the guide was back at camp. He wasn't expecting to encounter the lion, it just happened.

Rumour has it that there have indeed been a few modern instances of bowhunters claiming bow-killed elephant which actually did perish from a good dose of lead poisoning. I wish it wasn't the case, and that every bowman was inclined toward truthfulness. However, I hasten to point out that there are also very honest, arrow-only bow-killed elephants, where the rifle was absolutely not required.

On dangerous game hunts, the presence of rifles exists to prevent possible tragedy to the people and suffering of the game should the need arise. Bramble made the excellent point that what we hunters do is mostly adventurous rather than brave - bravery being a quality which those making or risking the sacrifice of their own lives for the betterment of others possess. And because of this important fact - that I am pursuing adventure rather than bravery - I am quite happy with the reassurance that behind me is a good friend who is handy with a heavy rifle when I am crawling up to a buffalo with my bow. That much adventure is enough for me, though I understand that for others it would be inadequate (as it was for Bill).

Thanks for the thoughtful, polite discussion, gents! It is more pleasant to electronically banter back-and-forth with well-mannered folk who hold different views to oneself, than to attempt to discuss world-views and philosophical matters with impolite, dogmatic types who may hold similar views to oneself!

Bramble - hat's off to you for having a go with that heavy longbow! My bow is considered heavy by bowhunters (buffalo heavy, not elephant heavy), but it is still seventy pounds lighter than the one you tried! I couldn't imagine the strength required! Incidentally, it seems the average elephant bow is around the hundred pound mark.

Regards,

Ben


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: rscott]
      #112815 - 28/08/08 05:20 PM

LOL Bramble. best, Mike

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Bramble
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #112837 - 28/08/08 10:50 PM

They tested the ones that they got from the wreck of the Tudor Warsip "Mary Rose" when they salvaged her. she went down in 1500's. The heavest bow had a draw weight of 170 lbs !!!

When they examined the skeletons of the archers that they found the bone plates in their coller bones had never fuzed as normal skeletons. Rather this element was replaced with cartilidge. The scientists put it down to the massive overuse of this region of their bodies.

That was when the bowmakers made the 150 lb weight replica. I did some work for the "Farmers and Fletchers" guild in London which was when I got to try it.

When I said I tried it Ben, please do not credit that statment with any measure of sucess in the endevour !!! The best I could do is to get the string 3" from touching my lips. Because the draw weight loads up on those longbows, I wasent pulling 150 lbs, proberbly 100 or so.

Regards


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Ripp
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: Bramble]
      #112842 - 28/08/08 11:21 PM

Have been following in this discussion for a bit and would like to wade in ..

I have been bowhunting for the better part of 35 years..and would hunt elephant with one given the opportunity..and feel it is, like Ben has mentioned, just as humane as any rifle...

Have taken over 30 deer, 8 elk, antelope, and bear..all with a bow..-I am not saying this in a bragging fashion but to merely add some credence to what I am stating..-As to hunting methods..have stalked, used tree stands, hidden in brush by a water hole, and yes..been in a blind along a feeding area once while hunting antelope...however for myself, the most productive and rewarding by far has been the spot and stalk method

Personally feel many comments made regarding this topic are made erroneously by those who have had little or no experience and therefore are not aware of the various hunting methods used with a bow and just how deadly they are..quite frankly, even after all this time I am still surprised at times...perfect example...the last elk I shot with a bow ran a bit,,however I cow called, he turned looked back at me --and fell..all in less than the 30 seconds discussed above.. In most cases, not all, but most ..in my experience..the game really doesn't know what happened and at times run a bit..look around..and if nothing spotted will go about their business --suddenly falling ..

In my lifetime I have seen much more game wounded with a rifle than a bow..however have also seen many more hunts with a rifle than bow ...sooo....

Guess my point is, given that if the individual does his job..ie; practices, gets close to his game and is sure of his shot...the odds are the kill will be as quick or quicker than with a rifle and actually not as tramatic on the game-- at the shot--they will not hear the loud boom, feel the dramatic hit..for those that have done a lot of bowhunting..you can relate to what I am saying..

The bull I mentioned above..once he dropped..I started field dressing him..while I was doing this, I had other bulls still bugling around me...within 150 yards and less..I got my bugle back out and let out a call..actually had a bull walk to within 30 yards --that would not have been the case had I used a firearm...

I also enjoy using a rifle and have used it more than a bow..however, again, having used both..agree mostly with all that Ben has stated.

Thank you
Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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9.3x57
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: Ripp]
      #112846 - 29/08/08 12:04 AM

Very interesting post.

RIPP:

I was actually going to PM you and ask you to wade in!

Your experience ID's the lethality, at least on the game the size you mention. I am not a bowhunter but I know from friends that are that the bow is not the pingpong ball many rifle shooters think it is.

I guess after reading this thread again, I now have 2 problems with bowhunting elephant, one being as I've stated earlier, merely a personal preference issue.

The second is different, however. From what I read here {and I'm sorry to say, it jibes with what I've read elsewhere}, ELEPHANT hunting with a bow in actuality, as it plays out for most {virtually all?} that do it, is more akin to hunting trophy deer with a .22 Magnum, shooting it as best you can and then letting your buddy dump it with a .30-06 if all doesn't pan out nice.

As some have stated, more of a stunt with a good chance of the stunt being played out at the animal's expense?

I do certainly acknowledge that it COULD be done properly, just as a fellow COULD {and some do...} successfully and without backup kill trophy deer or elk with a .22 Magnum.

Is this a legitimate view? Please recognise that I am "bow-challenged" and thus have to put things in "gun lingo".

{And before we get too technical, go with a .22 Hornet if you like, my point being a round that is fully capable of killing but is not the same as a normal deer caliber.}

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9ThreeXFifty7 (29/08/08 06:15 AM)


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JabaliHunter
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #112860 - 29/08/08 04:20 AM

Africans have been hunting elephants for centuries before guns were invented, however, the African meat hunter doesn't always care how long the animal takes to die. There's no question about how effective modern bows are in the right hands. Nevertheless, it's still a heart/lung shoot and although it may be quick, it is not instant. Its a question of individual ethics and everyone has different ethical interpretations, but the least traumatic method for both quarry and other group members is the brain shot. Its like fishing for dolphin (not mahi mahi) - everyone knows its possible, but how many would?

Edited by JabaliHunter (29/08/08 04:58 AM)


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Ben
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #112890 - 29/08/08 07:29 AM

Has anyone got an approximate percentage of how many elephants are killed on safari with the brain shot? From the films I've seen, I'd guess one in three, but that could be quite incorrect.

I have heard about .22s killing elephant on a couple of occasions. Arrows are quite different to .22s. As I said before, Steve Kobrine got a pass-through on an elephant with his arrow. A chest shot is a chest shot with a rifle or a bow; comparison studies indicate that a well-placed arrow kills slightly quicker than a well-placed bullet.

Like Ripp said, most of my bow-shot game (camel, buffalo, pigs, goats, donkeys, brumbies) have perished in seconds. A common misconception is that arrows provide a lingering death from loss of blood. That is quite incorrect. Loss of blood is not how an arrow kills. There's a really big medical word for how an arrow kills, and it involves the brain being shut down due to massive and rapid haemorrage in the lungs and / or heart - seconds, not minutes, in most instances.

At a guess, I would say that hunting elephant with a nice big double rifle is the surest way of killing one with no need for the guide's back-up - near 100%. Hunting them with a bow might lower this to 60% (again, just guessing) - understandably unacceptable for some, but a calculated risk for those who choose to do so, remembering that they are not trying to be brave, but trying to have an adventure. A .22 might work in 10% of cases (being generous). I'm just quite uncomfortable with comparing heavy hunting bows to .22s.

Thanks again for the food for thought from all angles on this question!

Cheers,

Ben


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9.3x57
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: Ben]
      #112891 - 29/08/08 08:23 AM

Quote:

I'm just quite uncomfortable with comparing heavy hunting bows to .22s.




Ben, I'm using the .22 Mag/.22 Hornet on deer {not elephant} as a way of asking the question about the killing effect of an arrow on an elephant.

Will an arrow even from a heavy bow break an elephant's shoulder? Will it reach the vitals should it hit shoulder?

I'm asking as I do not know. I have hunches, that's all.

Guys get pass thru's on elk fairly frequently from what I'm told, but I just see an elephant as a different world altogether, that is, when BONE is hit.

For that matter, has anyone seen a verified affect of an arrow squarely hitting an elephant's rib and going on?

Like you, I am curious.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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rscott
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #112909 - 29/08/08 01:31 PM

Quote:

Africans have been hunting elephants for centuries before guns were invented, however, the African meat hunter doesn't always care how long the animal takes to die. There's no question about how effective modern bows are in the right hands. Nevertheless, it's still a heart/lung shoot and although it may be quick, it is not instant. Its a question of individual ethics and everyone has different ethical interpretations, but the least traumatic method for both quarry and other group members is the brain shot. Its like fishing for dolphin (not mahi mahi) - everyone knows its possible, but how many would?




Jabali,
not being critical but you seem to be implying the only ethical killing shot on an elephant is the brain shot.
are we not then saying elephant deserve more respect than say buffalo, lion, elk, red stag, etc., etc? shouldn't we then be shooting everything we hunt in the brain?
i've seen several brain shots missed, including one of my own, but a quick follow up through the heart of the fleeing beast finished it. it doesn't allways end that way though.
i imagine we've all seen video footage of hunters missing brain shots and wounding elephant, even professionals.
for the majority of hunters, who get maybe one crack at an elephant in their life time, armed with either bows or rifles, the heart/lung shot is the most responsible, surest and therefore most ethical.
my 2 cents


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bigger_is_best
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: rscott]
      #112936 - 29/08/08 05:56 PM

Very interesting topic. My bowhunting has been limited to rabbits, based on my skill not being good enough for anything else. Rabbits tend to be a solid hit or a complete miss. I have hunted pigs and goats in a group, but carried the rifle or shotgun as backup to bowhunters, to stop any injured animals escaping. I very rarely fired, and when I did it was probably unnecessary, as they would have dropped before getting out of sight.
I have in front of me a copy of a WWII training manual that lists the location of main arteries that can be attacked with a knife. Loss of consciousness from the severing of these is indicated as between 30 second and instantaneous, with death resulting between 2 minutes and 2 seconds after loss of consciousness. On people these range from 0.25 to 5 inches under the surface. While I believe these numbers may be a bit ambitious, requiring a perfect cut, it does suggest that unconsciousness due to sudden drop of blood pressure can be very quick. From personal experience, having sliced myself accidentally on too many occasions, I have rarely felt pain as an immediate sensation to a cut by a sharp edge. I once dropped a straight razor, then caught it. My brain knew this was wrong, but my hand kept going. I remember the feel of the razor sliding through my hand, but it was definitely NOT painful, although the memory still makes me uncomfortable. The cut was not serious, but reasonably deep. The blood flow was astounding, and was very difficult to stop, but pain as such did not really begin for probably 10 or more minutes. By the next day it hurt like hell.

Injuries from blunt knives or tools, and injuries from hitting and jamming on the other hand become painful immediately, or within a minute or so, depending how hard the hit. While blood loss may be significant, it is nothing like that from a sharp cut, and tends to be easier to stop.

What has this to do with hunting? I tend to think that the usually razor sharp arrow tends to cut through with very little immediate pain, and if reasonably placed, will result in rapid blood loss, and subsequent loss of consciousness and death. This is supported by those animals that are seen to jump, then settle back into routine before falling over. Having seen goats shot from cover continue to feed until they collapse, I think this is a reasonable assumption.

On the other side, I have seen kangaroos taken with .243’s as clean headshots that maintain a pulse despite repeated attempts to “finish them off” they are down, but show muscle movement when touched, and have a strong pulse in the neck. Personally, I won’t skin something with a pulse, but have fired several .22s into some animals trying to remove the pulse before being happy to call it dead.

Some years ago I was in Canada. I hoped to hunt, but the only game in season was snow shoe hare and skunk. I could not imagine sitting back in a shooting jacket with my pipe and a fine scotch, looking at a mounted skunk and talking about my hunting trip. What I did discover however, was that bear hunting in the area I visited was exclusively by baiting and from tree stands. I asked about a ground level stalk, possibly with a handgun, and received very strange looks. The general consensus was that I was @#$@$@$@$@ mad, and would get eaten. These were the smaller bear, and I was told no-one would hunt them on the ground, even with a rifle. Obviously different strokes for different folks. I loved the lodge and the people, but I would not go there deliberately to shoot from a stand.
I believe we all have different desires in our hunting. As long as no deliberate suffering is being caused, I am happy to accept others preferences. We all need to stay together, because the enemy will be happy to divide and conquer, attacking each aspect of hunting until there are none of us left.


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JabaliHunter
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: rscott]
      #112940 - 29/08/08 07:29 PM

rscott - I see your point and no that's not what I was trying to say, but reading back I see that I effectively did. Perhaps I should just say that my preferred option is the brain, with backup shots to the body. As you say there is still an inherent risk in this strategy though. Its not always possible to get an angle on the brain though and I'm not suggesting that shots should be passed up if no brain shot is on offer. Perhaps I should also clarify that bowhunting game is illegal in the UK, and therefore few of us have any practical expereince of it. I have bowhunted deer (abroad) and I personally think that it should be legal for deer here.

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Ben
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #113157 - 01/09/08 07:13 AM

Quote:



For that matter, has anyone seen a verified affect of an arrow squarely hitting an elephant's rib and going on?

Like you, I am curious.




I just asked a bowhunter from Zim. From what I can gather, a dead-centre rib hit stops the arrow in its tracks. The edges of the ribs, from one fellow's testing, allow the heavy, two-bladed arrow through. The most famous modern bowhunter, Chuck Adams, tried and failed. His elephant charged and was shot down by the PH. He shot the ribs after that, and came to the conclusion that it is wrong to hunt elephant with bow and arrow. A fellow might be able to arrive at a theoretical approximate percentage chance of success. The equipment he used seemed to be lighter in draw weight and arrow weight than what other successful elephant hunters use. As the Bible says, somewhere, "Let each man be convinced in his own mind." One chap says yes, one chap says no; anecdotal evidence for and against.

Regards,

Ben


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9.3x57
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: Ben]
      #113158 - 01/09/08 07:35 AM

Quote:

Quote:



For that matter, has anyone seen a verified affect of an arrow squarely hitting an elephant's rib and going on?

Like you, I am curious.




I just asked a bowhunter from Zim. From what I can gather, a dead-centre rib hit stops the arrow in its tracks. The edges of the ribs, from one fellow's testing, allow the heavy, two-bladed arrow through. The most famous modern bowhunter, Chuck Adams, tried and failed. His elephant charged and was shot down by the PH. He shot the ribs after that, and came to the conclusion that it is wrong to hunt elephant with bow and arrow. A fellow might be able to arrive at a theoretical approximate percentage chance of success. The equipment he used seemed to be lighter in draw weight and arrow weight than what other successful elephant hunters use. As the Bible says, somewhere, "Let each man be convinced in his own mind." One chap says yes, one chap says no; anecdotal evidence for and against.

Regards,

Ben




Thanks very much, Ben.

IF the info given to you is in fact correct, then I sit squarely in Bramble's camp. A rib presents the least bone obstacle any projectile can encounter on its way to vitals. If an arrow cannot be guaranteed to hole or break a rib and continue in straight enough a line to reach the vitals, then the kill constitutes a stunt that IMO should at least be ethically questionable. In my mind there isn't any question if your info is accurate.

It would amaze me to hear fellows get agitated about this heavy bullet or that, its penetrative abilities or lack thereof, and then with a wave of the hand accept the use of a tool that cannot even be guaranteed to kill cleanly when give one of the easiest routes that can be taken to the vitals. How many rifle hunters would accept the use of a cartridge/bullet that was not capable of holing a rib and continuing on to make a clean kill?

VERY informative thread. Quite fascinating.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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