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JPK
.375 member


Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: Rimless Cartridges in DR's ?? [Re: mickey]
      #73518 - 10/03/07 02:11 AM

Mickey,

My experience has shown that there is quite a velocity range where I can get my 458wm double rifle to shoot well, using different powders and bullets. Still if you hot rod the loadings then the rifle will not shoot well. Seems a self limiting problem, at least for those who care how their rifles shoot and can shoot well enough to see the results of their loading efforts.

It would be easier to hot rod any flanged NE round since the cases just invite more powder. But again, hot rodding will result in poor shooting.

A PH I hunt with in Zimbabwe uses hot rodded 470 rounds for his hunting. He's pushing 500gr Woodleighs at 2250fps. The rifle shoots to the sights with the barrels converging at about 25yds, which is fine for the hear and now issues he occasionally encounters. And he doesn't do much shooting while hunting. So far no problems, but his is a special situation I think.

JPK


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smicha6551
.275 member


Reged: 09/08/05
Posts: 88
Loc: NYC & Kuwait
Re: Rimless Cartridges in DR's ?? [Re: JPK]
      #73701 - 12/03/07 06:08 PM

A while back I asked about Krieghoff (Classic) rifles in .458 Win. Mag. - is this rifle known for problems with belted rounds?

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xausa
.400 member


Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Rimless Cartridges in DR's ?? [Re: smicha6551]
      #73715 - 13/03/07 02:06 AM

I assume that the Krieghoff S/S DR would function as well with .458's as my O/U has, but that still leaves me with reservations.

1. Anecdotal evidence which makes sense to me is that .458 ammunition which has been stored for some time behaves erratically, resulting sometimes in unacceptably low velocity. The .458 case is notoriously small for the performance claimed by the manufacturer, and duplicating factory velocities with handloads has always been difficult. Standard loads have to be heavily compressed, and the effect of compressed charges on ammunition stored for some time has yet, to my knowledge, to be investigated. It is entirely possible that reducing the air space causes ignition to be inhibited, resulting in drastically reduced velocities, certainly not desirable when dealing with dangerous game.

2. The other effect of the inadequate case volume is increased pressure, which can rather easily be dealt with by any modern bolt action, as well as some less than modern (my first .458 was built on a 1903 Springfield action). A double rifle is another matter. Every shot with a cartridge generating up to 55,000 pounds per square inch pressure puts a strain on the action, and with a S/S this strain is partially expressed as torque, which tends to twist the action lugs while at the same time placing a strain on the lugs, the action bolt and the hinge pin. Over time, this will put the action "off face". Using a cartridge designed for use in a DR will postpone this difficulty considerably.

Although I am not convinced that the Krieghoff .500/.416 3 1/4" cartridge is a totally sensible round for a DR, to me it makes much more sense than the .458. My choice would be the .500 NE, which can easily be down loaded to match .458 performance for practice and loaded up to use on game. There is a good variety of cast bullets which shoot really well in the .500, and you can be relatively assured that considerable practice will put far less strain on the action. Moreover, you can be sure that a factory load or round handloaded to factory specs will perform as expected, which is not necessarily the case with the .458.


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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: Rimless Cartridges in DR's ?? [Re: xausa]
      #73737 - 13/03/07 09:18 AM

xausa,

Your information on the 458wm is out of date with respect to ammunition problems. The 458wm is very easy to load for and there need be no powder compression issues with a variety of today's powders. Further, it is very easy to load ammunition which out performs factory ammunition and at well below max pressures. Factory ammunition for the 458wm is loaded notoriously mildly - except perhaps for the relatively new Hornaday "heavy magnum" loading.

In any event, I have been able to assemble loads which far exceed factory nominal performance - except for that Hornaday load - with no trouble and with no compressed powder, at well under the SAAMI max pressure. My 500gr Woodleigh solid load shoots to regulation at 2135fps. An even better elephant load, with phenominal penetration, is the 450gr North Fork flat point solid at 2190fps, which also shoots to regulation. My current soft load is Woodleighs 500 grainer at about factory ammo specs, 2050fps, and this load does all I'll ever need a soft to do, shoots to regulation when it is warm out only.

My solid loads have been proven on quite a few buff and elephants and not found wanting in any respects.

My rifle has 26" barrels and contrary to the common wives' tale, the 458wm loves longer barrels, at least in my experience. Nevertheless, Hornaday's reloading manual shows six powders producing 2150fps at or near max and another powder producing 2200fps - AA2230, my favorite for 500 grainers.

I don't neccesarily advocate loading to max pressure, just to match regulation, but the data is illustrative of the real potential of the 458wm, as opposed to the hard to dispel old wives' tales surrounding ammo problems from near a half century ago.

So far as purchasing a double rifle in 458wm, I believe it should be done with the pricing accounting for the possibility that the rifle may need to be rechambered to 450NE 3 1/4" if it proves unreliable as a 458wm. About $2000 worst case, a mere $600 if you get lucky.

Keep in mind that rehinging a double rifle is cheap, quick and easy. 458wm ammo is universally available should your home brews go missing on the trip over too. If the price is right, buy the 458wm, but be prepared to rechamber and have that cost built into the price.

I have 800 rounds or so through my rifle with no problems or issues of any kind. But I did buy it with the idea that I would rechamber it to 450NE, just found out that I was fortunate and it wasn't nessecary.

Of course, no flys on the 500NE either!!

JPK


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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Rimless Cartridges in DR's ?? [Re: sbs470]
      #73793 - 14/03/07 04:40 AM

Quote:

Yesterday I received a call from an antique and rare book seller saying she had about 10 African hunting books and would I like a look at them before they went on the shelf.I was over there before she put the phone down.In the collection was a 1958 edition of John Taylors book African Big game and Big Game rifles.Thumbing through I found a quote about rimless cartridges in double rifles.I immediatley thought of this thread. He basically said he had't owned such a rifle but would not hesitate to use one.I cannot find that quote in the 1994 book African Rifles & cartridges.May be some one else might find it and quote the page number.I may have to go back and buy the book.

My own Westley Richards in 300 savage has never given any trouble either chambering and closing or opening and extraction of cases

good shooting
sbs470




SBS470, It is quite evident that JPK has had very good luck with his 458 double rifle, and I'm sure there are others as well. Quateing Taylor, is usually a strong source for any opinion on cartridges for dangerous game in Africa. In this case however in both your quote, and that of JPK. of Taylor are in his own words speculation at best, and was based on the performance of the cartridges it's self,ballisticly, and based on that he thought the cartridge would be a nice set-up with a double and a single shot of the same chambering. Haveing not owned such a rifle, means he was simply considering it, as a good idea. many things sound good till you get in a tight with the idea, and it proves to not be as good a idea as you had thought.

As I've always said, things are fine, no matter what they are till they show you their bad side, and suddenly they were not as advertized,in practice,as they were in thought. That one time, may be all that it takes to change your mind in a big way, permently!

My thing is when picking a fighting tool, I see no profit in adding a feature that are in question as to their reliability. The same goes for single triggers on doubles, auto safeties, on any DGR, A scoped rifle, with no iron sights, or a chambering that is borderline enough. That is not to say one shouldn't use what ever suits him, for any job, I just don't think it is a real smart move, when something better can be had at the same or lessor cost!

USE WHAT FLOATS YOUR CANOE,as long as you're the one who must paddle it in rough water!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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xausa
.400 member


Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Rimless Cartridges in DR's ?? [Re: JPK]
      #73861 - 15/03/07 01:29 AM

As I tried to make clear, my knowledge of the problem with the .458 is anecdotal (see http://www.african-hunter.com/WhatsWrong.htm). I have never had any difficulty with the .458, either with factory loads or with hand loads. Nonetheless, I still consider rimmed cartridges, loaded to appropriate pressures for DR's, superior to rimless for use in DR's.

I forgot to mention the .470 as a possibility in the Krieghoff rifle, although the relative scarcity of bullets makes the .470 less desirable from the handloader point of view.


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