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hoppdoc
.400 member

Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA

BROADSIDE SOLID PENETRATION ON ELE
#71122 - 10/02/07 06:50 AM

I have scheduled a hunt for Buff/tuskless Ele in 2008 in Zim

Advise please!!

Is there substantial risk for overpenetration with solids on a broadside heart lung shot on a sizable Ele? You take the initial shot and then go for the broadside if needed and offered.

One PH I spoke with says the risk of complete penetration from a 500 NE is minimal and not a problem even in herds.He said usually sees both lungs hit with with any decent broadside angle shot with a Double.

Obviously I will do just as he advises while when hunting and he has shot hundreds of Ele--

Is complete broadside penetration from a 500NE solid on Ele of any concern??

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An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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EricD
.416 member

Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 4636

Re: BROADSIDE SOLID PENETRATION ON ELE [Re: hoppdoc]
#71126 - 10/02/07 07:58 AM

Hoppdoc,

FWIW, I put a heart/lung shot into the tuskless I shot a couple of years ago when it was down on the ground (to make sure it wouldn't go anywhere if it got up again), and it did not exit on the other side. This was with a 375H&H using a "Superpenetrator solid".

Erik

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JPK
.375 member

Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD

Re: BROADSIDE SOLID PENETRATION ON ELE [Re: EricD]
#71127 - 10/02/07 08:14 AM

I have had some of my solids exit from my 458 DR. The North Fork 450gr flat point solids WILL exit on a broadside heart lung shot on a cow - I think they would exit on a bull too. 500gr Woodleigh solids MAY exit on a cow, maybe half or three quarters of the time, they won't exit on a bull.

I would bet that a 500NE loaded to 2150fps would exit at least some of the time.

JPK

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500grains
.416 member

Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA

Re: BROADSIDE SOLID PENETRATION ON ELE [Re: JPK]
#71128 - 10/02/07 08:28 AM

With the .500 NE and broadside CHEST shots on cow elephant, I found that flat nose solids regularly exit, Woodleighs usually exit, and Barnes hemispherical RN solids usually do not exit.

However, most PHs will make you wait for a clear shot with nothing behind the elephant, so bullets exiting is not a disadvantage.

On side brain shots, I have never seen a bullet not exit.

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NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39889
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: BROADSIDE SOLID PENETRATION ON ELE [Re: 500grains]
#71142 - 10/02/07 12:44 PM

When cow hunting last year I had an exit with a brain shot on a small ele cow. Somehow the bullet path diverged and ended up coming out behind the right ear. This was the initial front on brain shot. A bit later I put three shots into its chest (it was dead, but we couldn't approach) from a bit of a front broadside angle. None of these exited. .450 NE 480 gr Woodleighs.

We certainly waited for the other elephants to move out of the way with the broadside shots.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Ndumo
.300 member

Reged: 21/12/03
Posts: 230
Loc: Namibia

Re: BROADSIDE SOLID PENETRATION ON ELE [Re: NitroX]
#71360 - 13/02/07 08:07 AM

IMO its a 50/50 call. usually, when serious bone is hit the .500 NE does not exit. When no such bones are encountered, they freqently do exit. (Mostly seen Wolfgang Romey ammo, thus Woodleigh bullets.) As an aside, I shot a wounded tuskless cow last year on the last rib, going away, and the bullet exited on the opposite cheek. {{Edited- see post below}} (500 gr GSC @ 2450 ft/sec). See photo below

Edited by Ndumo (13/02/07 06:57 PM)

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hoppdoc
.400 member

Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA

Re: BROADSIDE SOLID PENETRATION ON ELE [Re: Ndumo]
#71365 - 13/02/07 09:23 AM

Fascinating!!

It would seem that for a certain game such as Ele every bullet/caliber combo has an optimal velocity for full solid penetration.One would think a smaller cross sectional area solid with a stout SD would pentrate easier/further than a larger caliber bullet at a slower velocity. Maybe not or maybe yes.

The 570 gr Woodleigh solid may penetrate @ 2150 while the
500 gr 458 @ 2150 pentrates similarly as does the 450 gr @ a faster 2450.

Decision--what combos are the best and not overkill?

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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Ndumo
.300 member

Reged: 21/12/03
Posts: 230
Loc: Namibia

Re: BROADSIDE SOLID PENETRATION ON ELE [Re: hoppdoc]
#71367 - 13/02/07 09:31 AM

Sorry, my above post should have read 500gr GSC @2450ft/sec. I have never used 450gr bullets in my .450 on any game. Must be because of all the arguments on lighter bullets that I have typed in 450gr ISO 500gr.

--------------------
Karl Stumpfe
Ndumo Hunting Safaris (Pty) Ltd.
karl@huntingsafaris.net
www.huntingsafaris.net
+264 811 285 416

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hoppdoc
.400 member

Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA

Re: BROADSIDE SOLID PENETRATION ON ELE [Re: Ndumo]
#71371 - 13/02/07 10:30 AM

Impressive.

That combo(500gr @2450) obviously gives superb penetration.

If we play the SD game the 416 Weatherby solid looks good with a 450gr with a SD of .374.

Is this the best penetrating combo?

Methinks I would rather have a 510 diameter bullet(SD.318) with a 24% larger cross sectional area making the same hole and penetrating a bit less than the 416.The advantage of the cross sectional area of the 500NE is less vs a 458 diameter showing only a 11% increase in cross sectional area.A 500gr@ 2450 should penetrate further than any 500NE.

The bottom line is how much penetration is enough and not wasted?

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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JPK
.375 member

Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD

Re: BROADSIDE SOLID PENETRATION ON ELE [Re: hoppdoc]
#71377 - 13/02/07 11:17 AM

HopDoc,

You have asked the ultimate question!

In my opinion, when recoil is a fact of life, I would prefer a 570gr 500NE and its recoil over a 500gr .458 at 2450fps and its recoil. You may trade some penetration potential for more "impact effect", but you will have adequate penetration regardless.

It's apparent to me from both what I've read and my presonal experiences and experiments, that you can get all of both penetration and impact effect available in a given cartridge by using a flat point driving band solid.

Beware of potential twist issues regarding too long heavy mono solids.

BTW, my 450gr North Forks are traveling at a muzzle velocity of 2190fps. Sectional density is .305, same as the 300gr 375H&H. "Impact effect" is not noticably different than with 500gr Woodleighs - SD at .334, iirc - at 2135fps but penetration is nearly double in all cases where I've been able to trace bullet paths.

FWIW, I have not found my rifle or loads to be be wanting in any way.

JPK

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Grizzly
.333 member

Reged: 05/12/05
Posts: 359
Loc: Dallas, Texas, USA

Re: BROADSIDE SOLID PENETRATION ON ELE [Re: JPK]
#71555 - 15/02/07 03:26 PM

Does anyone have input on how the Northfork Cup points perform? With the slight mushrooming effect, I woould think that they would slow the bullet down via increased frontal surface so that it would not exit.

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500grains
.416 member

Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA

Re: BROADSIDE SOLID PENETRATION ON ELE [Re: Grizzly]
#71560 - 15/02/07 05:25 PM

Grizzly, I have found that the NF cup point penetrates about 20% less than a flat nose solid, but creates a larger wound channel.

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JPK
.375 member

Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD

Re: BROADSIDE SOLID PENETRATION ON ELE [Re: 500grains]
#71588 - 16/02/07 01:00 AM

Grizzly,

Also want to point out that Mike at North Fork does not recomend the cup points for elephants. No one had used cup points on elephants that he is aware of either.

JPK

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