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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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Aziz
.224 member


Reged: 28/01/07
Posts: 8
Loc: California
How to import Double rifle
      #70321 - 28/01/07 10:22 AM

Hello

I have inherited two Double Rifles; both are outside the United States. How can I import these rifles? Any help will be appreciated.

Regards
Aziz

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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: How to import Double rifle [Re: Aziz]
      #70324 - 28/01/07 11:28 AM

There is a form on the BATF website that you can have a dealer fill out. In a couple of months the BATF will give you a permit and then you have the rifles shipped to the dealer. On arrival, you fill out a 4473 and they are yours.

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Chasseur
.375 member


Reged: 18/11/03
Posts: 771
Loc: Hunting classic Indian game!
Re: How to import Double rifle [Re: Aziz]
      #70326 - 28/01/07 11:51 AM

Congratulations!

You would need to find out what the export proceedures are for the country they are in.

For US import its pretty easy. You need an FFL to fill in Form 6 and make an application to import these two rifles (http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/feib/index.htm). It takes about 2-3 to be approved. Then once approved the foreign shipper sends it with a copy of the form to your FFL. Its then stopped at Customs and the FFL or a Custom's broker then go to Customs with their copy of the form and pay the customs fees. Then that FFL will either transfer it to you, or send it to an FFL in your state. There are several FFL who offer this service (here is one: http://www.bsaltd.com/). They say they charge $200-300 for it, but in reality once all the fees are paid, by the time it gets in your hands $500-600 is more like it (depending of course on the value of the gun...). Its pretty simple, I've done it two times and I am planning to do it again soon...

Hope this helps!

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



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Aziz
.224 member


Reged: 28/01/07
Posts: 8
Loc: California
Re: How to import Double rifle [Re: Chasseur]
      #70333 - 28/01/07 01:27 PM

Thank you very much for the information. You gave me exactly what I needed.

Regards
Aziz

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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2456
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: How to import Double rifle [Re: Aziz]
      #70347 - 28/01/07 04:23 PM

Ouch!! $200-$300 for the import with cost up to $500 to $600. Hope that includes freight.

Shop around. I think you can do better than that. Here are some other importers from my Martini Internet Resource list http://www.martinihenry.com/links.htm

Kebco LLC - http://www.kebcollc.com

Simpson Ltd. - http://www.simpsonltd.com

Leroy's Big Valley Guns (eMail) - leroygun@nemontel.net

John Appleton - http://users.erols.com/apple1co

The easiet way is have your local FFL Dealer do the ATF- Form 6 for you and have the guns mailed to to the dealer. Most FFL Dealers don't know that they can do an occasional import and will turn you down.

If the rifles are more than 100 years old they are duty free.

If you have a trip planned to where the rifles are take the approved Form 6 with you and bring them back as your baggage. Save shipping and brokerage fees. Declare them on your Customs declaration and claim them as an inheritance. Know the fair market value from where you got them. Don't declare them at US market value. You may have to pay duty, but the value will be reduced by your exemption. You will still have to deliver them to the Dealer for the 4473.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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Aziz
.224 member


Reged: 28/01/07
Posts: 8
Loc: California
Re: How to import Double rifle [Re: DoubleD]
      #70373 - 29/01/07 03:50 AM

Hello DoubleD

Thank you very much for your advice. I will get the Form 6 approved and get them in as accompanying baggage.

Regards
Aziz

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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: How to import Double rifle [Re: Aziz]
      #70453 - 30/01/07 04:38 AM

Aziz,

Where are the guns and how old are they? If theya re pre 1898 then you culd have them shipped to your door. If they are later ones, then you would need to go through an importer.

I could refer you to a very good dealer in the UK if that is where they are and he would have the whole procss worked out - he ships to a member here who is based in Long Beach, if that is convenient. If they are in a coutnry other than the UK, of course, this would not work.

Cheers!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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Aziz
.224 member


Reged: 28/01/07
Posts: 8
Loc: California
Re: How to import Double rifle [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #70568 - 31/01/07 03:41 PM

Mehul

Thank you for your help, unfortunately they are not in the UK, both are from the early 1920. I think I will get the Form 6 approved and bring them myself on my next trip.

Regards
Aziz

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bulldog563
.400 member


Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California
Re: How to import Double rifle [Re: Aziz]
      #70569 - 31/01/07 06:14 PM

So what caliber and make are they? Pictures?

Congrats on the inheritance! Will these be your first doubles?

--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp

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new_guy
Sponsor


Reged: 10/08/04
Posts: 581
Loc: Texas
Re: How to import Double rifle [Re: 500grains]
      #70589 - 01/02/07 02:48 AM

Quote:

There is a form on the BATF website that you can have a dealer fill out. In a couple of months the BATF will give you a permit and then you have the rifles shipped to the dealer. On arrival, you fill out a 4473 and they are yours.



That will work for a shotgun, but for a rifle (doubles included) - the person you use to import the rifles will have to be registered with the DOD under the Arms Export Control Act, and I doubt you will find a local dealer who is. You'll need a licensed importer (type 08) to bring your rifles in for you.

Quote:

Hello DoubleD

Thank you very much for your advice. I will get the Form 6 approved and get them in as accompanying baggage.

Regards
Aziz



Aziz - Are you an FFL holder? If not, you're asking for trouble with the US Customs if you try this. It's a good way to lose your guns.

To be legally imported, the guns have to be imported by the FFL holder and licensed out to you... trying to do it the other way around will not be looked upon very favorably by US Customs.

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2456
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: How to import Double rifle [Re: new_guy]
      #70591 - 01/02/07 04:15 AM

New Guy,

The Arms Export Control Act pertains to Exports, not Imports and you don't register with DoD you register with DoS...Department of State. And that is for Exportation only.

You are right about the shotgun; it doesn't need an export permit. You do need an ATF 6 to import Shotguns as well as rifles.

As far as must have a licensed importer, you don't. A licensed importer is one way. But a regular dealer may make an occasional importation as may a holder of a Curio and Relic license. There are some restrictions on the importation of former government owned weapons.

Customs is not going bother you if you carrying your rifle through with a valid ATF form 6.

Now why do I think I am so sure....well you see I have imported guns via the described method both as holder of dealer license and as the holder of a C&R license. Also, I am a customs officer whose specialty is enforcement of the firearms import and export laws.

By the way, I can retire at the end of the year if you need someone to handle your imports and exports. I wouldn't need much of a salary and would be low maintenance. I wouldn't need medical coverage, insurance and retirement package, I already have those. A little cash, bullets and guns would be a nice supplement...and I am experienced.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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new_guy
Sponsor


Reged: 10/08/04
Posts: 581
Loc: Texas
Re: How to import Double rifle [Re: DoubleD]
      #70595 - 01/02/07 05:39 AM

DD - I can appreciate your experience, but following the letter of the law in a situation like this can not be argued.

The AECA is covered in detail by the ATF at the link below and its requirements are not gray.

http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/aeca.htm

The title of the AECA may imply that it is for exports only, but in fact, registration is required to import articles contained on the US Munitions Import List by Section 38 of the AECA of 1976.

See Subpart C, 447.21 "The U.S. Munitions Import List" for details:
(a) Nonautomatic and semiautomatic firearms, to caliber .50 inclusive, combat shotguns, and shotguns with barrels less than 18 inches in length, and all components and parts for such firearms.

If you're trying to import a "Nonautomatic or Semiautomatic firearm to caliber .50 inclusive..." then to get the import permit approved from the ATF, you will have to be registered under the AECA and approved to import Category I(a) articles. If it is larger than .50 caliber then you must be registered under the AECA and approved to import Category II(a) articles.

If not, you're import permit will not be approved.

So, without a Arms Export Control Act number, you can't get a form 6 for a Category I(a) article. If your FFL holder (type 01) has an Arms Export Control Act number, you could get an approved form 6.

If the rifle has a value of more than $2,000.00, you can't clear it yourself (licensed or not), as you know, it's then a formal entry and has to be done by a licensed customs broker.

As for an unlicensed person trying to import a firearm and then take them to the approved (form 6) importer for licensing back to them... I just can't imagine how that's a sound decision.

Quote:

(c) Criminal violations; punishment


Any person who willfully violates any provision of this section or section 2779 of this title, or any rule or regulation issued under either section, or who willfully, in a registration or license application or required report, makes any untrue statement of a material fact or omits to state a material fact required to be stated therein or necessary to make the statements therein not misleading, shall upon conviction be fined for each violation not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.




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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2456
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: How to import Double rifle [Re: new_guy]
      #70621 - 01/02/07 03:47 PM

New Guy,

You are confusing Commercial import and personal imports. You are also confusing being in the busines to import and not being in the business to import-making an occaisonal import.

Here is how the regulation you cited defines who the law applies to.

Quote:

(1)(A) As prescribed in regulations issued under this section, every person (other than an officer or employee of the United States Government acting in an official capacity) who engages in the business of manufacturing, exporting, or importing any defense articles or defense services designated by the President under subsection (a)(1) shall register with the United States Government agency charged with the administration of this section, and shall pay a registration fee which shall be prescribed by such regulations.



Dealers, Collectors and sometimes private individuals who are not in the business of manufacturing, exporting, or importing can get an ATF 6 for an occaisonal importation. You will find this authorization over in the GCA under importation.

The Informal vs formal entry rule for merchandise over $2000 applies commercial importations, not personal importations.

A traveler has a $800 personal exemption for merchandise they are bringing in for their personal use. Anything in excess is subject to duty. This is the standard tourist exemption. Any merchandise carried for resale is subject to the commercial entry rules.

The ATF 6 will name the traveler as the person for whom the importation is being made, so the personal exemption will apply. Since the traveler is a party to the transactions the Customs officer can allow the traveller to proceed. The Dealer is still on the hook for the Importation. The gun still has to be delivered to the Dealer for 4473's.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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Double_Trouble
.375 member


Reged: 27/04/06
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
Re: How to import Double rifle [Re: DoubleD]
      #70711 - 03/02/07 05:30 AM

Hey Double D!
the info you provided on Leroys Big Valley Gunworks was just the ticket!

i have contacted them with respect to a rifle i want to import into Canada and i have full confidence that they know what they are doing!

Thanks Loads for the information!!

if anyone has the need of the services at Leroys ,,,,re importing or exporting, call them at 1 406 228 4867 and ask for Deinse, she has a grip on the requirements of both the US and Canadian governments (better than either Gov't does i am sure)


DT

--------------------
Double Trouble,
Speak not of what you do not know.
Listen up when it's time to.

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Sunshine
.224 member


Reged: 06/02/04
Posts: 48
Loc: Cape Town, South Africa
Re: How to import Double rifle [Re: 500grains]
      #70721 - 03/02/07 07:47 AM

Quote:

There is a form on the BATF website that you can have a dealer fill out. In a couple of months the BATF will give you a permit and then you have the rifles shipped to the dealer. On arrival, you fill out a 4473 and they are yours.




Almost TWO YEARS ago I received an import permit for a Krieghoff Classic Big Five. Since then the gun is in my safe but I'm not allowed to use it because the licence still hasn't been issued!

You can't believe how stupid the South African bureaucrats are. I mean why did they let me import a gun from Germany if I may not use it? No wonder why already 1/3 of the Whites have left the country!

I'm a registered PH and do need the rifle for my business...

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Double_Trouble
.375 member


Reged: 27/04/06
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
Re: How to import Double rifle [Re: Sunshine]
      #70723 - 03/02/07 08:38 AM

I spoke to a couple of PH's from SA while at the Reno airport after the SCI show and they informed me that the maximum gun ownership was 4 total with 2 being rifles( but can not be the same calibre), one shotgun, and one handgun.

and i think that the limit was 4 due to the fact that they were PH's or something to that effect.... ludicrous!

Sunshine: I would wager that the more you ask them what the status of your licence is, the further down the pile your paperwork goes......F--K! I HATE dealing with government numbskulls! these dicks dont have a clue about what turning a profit is or being held accountable even feels like.

DT

--------------------
Double Trouble,
Speak not of what you do not know.
Listen up when it's time to.

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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2456
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: How to import Double rifle [Re: Double_Trouble]
      #70898 - 06/02/07 02:46 PM

Quote:

Hey Double D!
the info you provided on Leroys Big Valley Gunworks was just the ticket!

i have contacted them with respect to a rifle i want to import into Canada and i have full confidence that they know what they are doing!





I have cleared a lot of guns for Leroy and Denise, and later when I moved on to Headquarters, they cleared a few guns for me. They are good people, know what they are doing and don't over charge. Tell them Douglas Dickens said Howdy, and save some gophers for me!

A lot of the importers complain about how they have to charge such a high fee to import a gun to make up for the high cost of being a registered importer, that people choose to not import. People like Denise and Leroy; Ken at Kebco and John Appleton charge a more reasonable fee and have plenty of business.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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Double_Trouble
.375 member


Reged: 27/04/06
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
Re: How to import Double rifle [Re: DoubleD]
      #70921 - 07/02/07 03:04 AM

I will for sure say hello for you and mention that you want some varmints to dust when you get there!

as soon as i get the details on the rifle I am getting, i will fire the paperwork off to Ottawa and then to Denise.
and you are quite right about the rate they charge...it's quite fair and I hope that they stay busy and in business for a good long while.

my local dealer here absolutley refuses to purchase firearms from the US anymore due to an error that he (my dealer) made on some paperwork resulting in $15,000.00 in legal fees and then being threatened to be closed down. it turns out that the local firearms officer directed them as to how to complete the paperwork and they were both on the carpet for the error....what a screwed up system!

thanks again for hooking me up with Leroys!



DT

--------------------
Double Trouble,
Speak not of what you do not know.
Listen up when it's time to.

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