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NitroXAdministrator
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Follow up shot on ele after botched brain shot?
      #70305 - 28/01/07 06:24 AM

When hunting elephant last year the PH advised me to go for the brain shot with the first shot, but if it did not appear to hit the brain, not to try again and instead put a round into the heart/lungs.

I was using a .450 No. 2 Nitro Express double.

Obviously a good brain shot will drop the ele instantly. Even if only stunned but down, the second "insurance" shot into the chest makes sure it will still be there later on.

Obviously we are talking about an ele that isn't charging AFTER the first shot misses the brain. Maybe stopped, or wheeling to flee.

***

Gentlemen,

What do you think? What have been your experiences?

Has anyone here tried for a brain shot, missed the brain, then tried again for the brain?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NE450No2
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Re: Follow up shot on ele after botched brain shot? [Re: NitroX]
      #70312 - 28/01/07 07:39 AM

John
That is pretty much the standard for a missed brain shot.

However when hunting near a boundary like in DEKA I was advised by my PH that even follow up shots should be directed to the brain, if at all possible, as a heart lung shot elephant could make it into the Park, thus a lost trophy and a lot of Drama.

Fortunately a frontal brain with my 450 No2 and a 450 gr North Fork Solid at 6 yards did the trick.

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hoppdoc
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Re: Follow up shot on ele after botched brain shot? [Re: NE450No2]
      #70315 - 28/01/07 08:35 AM

Having never shot an Ele I am very curious and would like to ask---

If one makes a decent bilateral lung shot and misses the heart, exactly HOW FAR can such Ele usually run?? How about a heart shot Ele? I have lung shot 2 different elk dead on their feet who have run almost 300 yds and had a lung shot deer hit with a to small a caliber who went almost a quarter of a mile.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (28/01/07 08:43 AM)

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
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Re: Follow up shot on ele after botched brain shot? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #70325 - 28/01/07 11:33 AM

Having botched some brain shots, I have had a chance for a second shot primarily because the ele were moving slowly after being hit with a .50 caliber rifle. Consequently immediate follow up by the PH was not required.

However, with lighter caliber rifles, the ele is often sprinting away after a head shot that misses the brain, and then the PH better shoot quick or the ele is very likely lost forever.

Another issue is whether the shot is taken at the edge of the concession and next to a national park, or 50 miles from the nearest concession boundary. The former would mandate a quick insurance shot by the PH.

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zimhunter
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Re: Follow up shot on ele after botched brain shot? [Re: 500grains]
      #70393 - 29/01/07 09:17 AM

My first Elephant was in the Doma area of Zimbabwe and I tried a brain shot with a 375. Was high ,Elephant went down and IMMEDIATELY back up. PH was slow with followup shot, and as Elephant wheeled I put in a heart/lung shot, again probably high. Elephant made it back across park boundary and I paid for a lost Elephant. Quite a bit of blood where Elephant stopped after about 150yds so was probably fairly well hit but still lost. As a result I have not tried another brain shot.

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JPK
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Re: Follow up shot on ele after botched brain shot? [Re: zimhunter]
      #70400 - 29/01/07 12:22 PM

Like 500 Grains, not every brain shot has been perfect. Most imperfectly brained elephants went down allowing me a follow up brain shot. When they didn't drop they got a heart lung from me and also the PH.

Using a double rifle lets you get off the second shot very quickly when required.

I'm sure that under some circumstances I would take a first shot crack at the heart, but haven't encountered those cicumstances. The furthest a heart/lung shot elephant has gone for me is about fifty yards, but they all had two in the heart/lungs.

JPK

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Shanster
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Re: Follow up shot on ele after botched brain shot? [Re: JPK]
      #70417 - 29/01/07 02:37 PM

Do you really want the PH to shoot your animal? In my thought process the ph gets to shoot when I am within a breath of getting killed. Otherwise why not sit at home and watch a video? ( you must note I have never been to Africa abd am used to large bears and boars)
Am I off based? Is that normal PLease respond I am planning on an ELE hunt.
Thanks Shannon

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NE450No2
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Re: Follow up shot on ele after botched brain shot? [Re: Shanster]
      #70425 - 29/01/07 04:32 PM

Shanster
Like you I want to kill all my own animals.

If you shoot straight you will have no problems.

However... The last thing I want is an animal to escape over a boundary [even if it falls dead 10 feet over said boundary] or to cause a 2 day follow up.

My instructions to the PH's I have hunted with is for them to do what they think is best. ie if they think they need to shoot, then shoot.

I only ask that if an animal charges us, before they shoot they give me the command SHOOT!, about 1.5 seconds before they shoot, at least giving me the first shot.

I have never hunted with a trigger happy PH, and have never had a problem, but I do not think it is proper for a hunter to tell a PH how to do his job, unless the hunter is very experienced and the PH does something off base.

Like wise I have never questioned my PH when he says to shoot a particular animal.

He is much more experienced at judging the trophy than I am.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Follow up shot on ele after botched brain shot? [Re: NE450No2]
      #70444 - 30/01/07 02:34 AM

I think if hunting near a boundary is to ask the PH to blast the beast as well if it looks like running away.

Shoot it first, and maybe second as well, but if it is still too healthy it would be a damn shame for it to escape over a boundary.

JMO.

PS I like to shoot my own as well, of course, and I have not had a PH in Africa shoot anything major of mine yet.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Savuti_One_Shot
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Re: Follow up shot on ele after botched brain shot? [Re: NitroX]
      #70447 - 30/01/07 03:18 AM

On the first day of my only elephant hunt I told the PH to jump in if he thought there was any chance of the animal getting away.
So, when my first 470 500gr Barnes super solid missed the brain, but knocked him down, the PH put a 470 in the chest.
Jumbo got right back up, but didn't go anywhere. So I kept shooting til I found the brain. BTW, on a side brain shot, you'll know immediately when you've hit it. A geyser of bright red highly oxygenated blood will shoot out of the ears. No mistake.

Of course I wanted to shoot the elephant myself, but I wanted to not lose him after wounding him even more.

SOS

--------------------
"I've this damned cannon." - Robert Wilson

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hoppdoc
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Re: Follow up shot on ele after botched brain shot? [Re: Savuti_One_Shot]
      #70459 - 30/01/07 06:38 AM

Question to any PH's out there-


I am curious---

We all know brain shots on moving animals is tricky at best. What % of brain shots on Ele would PH's estimate that clients miss and require the PH to intervene??

How many wounded Ele do get shot but actually do escape every season/other season?

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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JPK
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Re: Follow up shot on ele after botched brain shot? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #70467 - 30/01/07 11:12 AM

If you try enough elephants you will eventually miss the brain. I was lamenting a missed brain shot which I managed to make up for with an excellent quartering away brain shot made with the elephant at full speed and in high gear. It was my first elephant. The PH told me not to be so hard on myself, that he'd talked to many former culling officers and really experienced PH's like Roger Whittall and his contemporaries and that, to a man, they passed on the fact that they had all blown it on occasion.

Perfection is the goal, but...

The side brain shot is the easier. Frontal more difficult, but the frontal is a hell of a lot more fun.

If you know your PH and he has confidence in you, he will give you every opportunity to kill the elephant yourself, but he will - and should - step in to prevent a lost dangerous animal.

That is one of the problems with heart/lung shots. The PH can't be sure the client has made a good shot. As easy as it should be, some clients blow the heart/lung shot.

If you want an exciting hunt, go for a frontal brain shot at under, say, 20yds, even better closer. But know that you have paid for the opportunity to make the shot and the kill on your own, not the garuntee. If you use enough double rifle, very likely you will get a second chance prior to any need for the PH to shoot, after knocking the elephant down.

BTW, I've been told that 25% of firt time elephant hunter succeed with a brain shot. If you buy and study Buzz Charlton's DVD and practice sufficiently you will greatly improve those odds.

JPK

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Shanster
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Re: Follow up shot on ele after botched brain shot? [Re: JPK]
      #70474 - 30/01/07 01:44 PM

Is it possible for the ph to stop the animal with a leg or pelvis shot. Can ELE run on 3 legs?
Helping stop an animal from getting away when the client cant shoot is differnt from killing it for him. I liked the Pick of 500 nitro the ph had his fingers in his ears. That is what I want mine to do.
Shannon

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500Nitro
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Re: Follow up shot on ele after botched brain shot? [Re: Shanster]
      #70475 - 30/01/07 01:57 PM

Shanster

If I fired my 500 Nitro next to you, you would want
your fingers in your ears. After 4 shots you'd be deaf !!!

IMHO, A wise move on the ph's part.


I go for Hip / Pelvis Shots on large, going away animals - it tends to stop or at least slow them significantly.

Edited by 500Nitro (31/01/07 06:47 AM)

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JPK
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Re: Follow up shot on ele after botched brain shot? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #70478 - 30/01/07 02:22 PM

Yes, the PH may have his fingers in his ears. Don't let that fool you, they are familiar with their rifles and aren't slow when the need for speed is there.

You can stop an elephant with a pelvis, leg or spine shot that disables it. The target is small so the default target is the heart and lungs which are large targets. You will have a bit of time to anchor the elephant, but if your PH takes a heart lung shot its because the elephant is bugging out.

That my experience.

JPK

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butchloc
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Re: Follow up shot on ele after botched brain shot? [Re: JPK]
      #70536 - 31/01/07 05:40 AM

I missed a frontal brain shot on a bull a couple years ago. He was charging and had dropped his head in the low position just the rifle went off and the shot was high. He whelled around and Hitailed it, but there was an askari bull with him that sided right up next to him so we could get a shot into the chest area. He was running away so tried to spine him, but missed it. My 2 PH's both fired also (I have standing orders with them than in this type of case they shoot to, I'm not going to leave an animal go or suffer longer because of pride) The bull tipped over in about 800 yds. 470 & 2-416's all with solids were used.

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hoppdoc
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Re: Follow up shot on ele after botched brain shot? [Re: butchloc]
      #70542 - 31/01/07 06:34 AM

Butchloc--

May I ask if the Ele was lung shot?
One lung or both?

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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butchloc
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Re: Follow up shot on ele after botched brain shot? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #70651 - 02/02/07 08:11 AM

the askari bull sided right tight to the big guy so we couldn't get a chest shot at all, had to take a north end shot of the south going bull. between my 3- 470's and the PH's 4- 416's I think maybe he just died of overweight

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EricD
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Re: Follow up shot on ele after botched brain shot? [Re: NitroX]
      #70707 - 03/02/07 04:45 AM

NitroX,

On my one and only elephant so far, I was shooting for the brain from the front, but the elephant dipped it's head down just as I fired (which we could confirm from the angle of the bullet enterance when we later checked). So either the bullet missed the brain, or perhaps nicked a bit of it as it went too high. The elephant fell to the side but was not 100% dead, so I fired 1 shot into the heart/lung area to make sure it wouldn't go far if it suddenly popped up, and then a side brain shot which turned it's lights out as if with a switch. These last 2 shots were done as fast as I could cycle the bolt.

My PH let me sort out things myself, which I am glad for and was as I wished. But we had discussed that if he felt it was vital for him to step in, that he could do so. After all, he's the pro. As it was though, he was kind of busy keeping track of other nearby, and potentially problematic, elephant.

Erik

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SGraves155
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Re: Follow up shot on ele after botched brain shot? [Re: EricD]
      #72013 - 20/02/07 01:28 PM

IMO, any elephant that moves away after the first shot deserves every effort by both the hunter and the PH to put in as many good followup shots as is humanly possible in the effort to prevent prolonged suffering. The true sportsman/hunter must make EVERY effort to prevent prolonged suffering of the game animal he is attempting to kill, otherwise, he is something less than a sportsman. This particuliarly true of game as intelligent as the ele. Attempting brain shots on game that is moving away is also not a good idea IMO. I am only a beginner with 3 ele (all decent-good mature bulls) but have not lost any, yet, using this philosophy.

--------------------
Steve

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JPK
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Re: Follow up shot on ele after botched brain shot? [Re: SGraves155]
      #72018 - 20/02/07 02:17 PM

SGraves155,

I would agree that taking a fast moving brain shot isn't a good idea for a first shot. But if you have planned with your PH its not a problem since he will know that you are going for the brain and he will, if he feels it nessecary, put in eventually fatal heart lung shots. Nothing ends suffering quicker than a successful brain shot, moving or going away or standing still.

Every frontal brain shot that I have taken has been moving to some degree or another. It might be swinging its head to look at you or bobbing its head or charging, but its moving.

JPK

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SGraves155
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Re: Follow up shot on ele after botched brain shot? [Re: JPK]
      #72037 - 20/02/07 09:16 PM

JPK, I agree with your statement. I meant to be referring to an animal that was moving away (hurriedly)after an unsuccessful first brain shot attempt.
On the question of shooting elephants close to park boundaries, I would hope the PH would let me know if we were closer than 1/4 mile to a boundary, as even a heart-shot ele can sometimes go that far. I believe most of the elephants have a very good idea where the boundaries are, and they likely head there as rapidly as possible if wounded.

--------------------
Steve

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JPK
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Re: Follow up shot on ele after botched brain shot? [Re: SGraves155]
      #72093 - 21/02/07 08:28 AM

SGraves155,

I was also reffering to a second brain attempt on a moving elephant. I've pulled it off, in fact it is probably the best shot I have ever made, a hard quartering away brain shot at the elephant at full speed. But by prior arrangement, the PH knew that I was going to keep trying the brain if the opportunity was there. On the other hand, I knew he would go for a heart shot the moment he felt he needed to to stop an injured elephant's escape.

Boundaries are a problem. I would want to know where it was if close. I would definitely go for a brain shot.

JPK

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