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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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Dark_Helmet
.333 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA
Re: Control round feed or not? [Re: Anonymous]
      #10214 - 26/02/04 09:34 PM

In reply to:

As to the M98 not everyone wants an old sloppy piece of shit that has to be done up




Them's fightin' words!!!!

our 30-06 mauser is a home-spum sub-MOA gun my grandfather built 50 years ago... I can assure you that there is nothing "done-up" about it... and it is surely an excellent piece in all respects. it is easily 10-15 times the gun that my M700 25-06 is.

you say yourself that you would use a mauser or M70 for any of several cartridges in a repeater-format... yet they are all pieces of shit that require a bunch of work to make right???? I just don't get it man...

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)


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Dark_Helmet
.333 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA
Re: Control round feed or not? [Re: Dark_Helmet]
      #10227 - 27/02/04 03:08 AM

wow... I was up early today... if I'm still alive in 3 hours, consider it an act of god.

[/thread-jack]

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)


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thefinegunmaker
.224 member


Reged: 21/02/04
Posts: 24
Loc: Southern Wisconsin
Re: ThomasEdwards [Re: ThomasEdwards]
      #10239 - 27/02/04 08:05 AM

Thomas
In response to your questions

...any insight as to why a round-bodied 97 action was selected as opposed to the flat-bottomed 76 action?...costs?...rem 700-type accuracy?...scalability?

The reason the round receiver was chosen was to keep the costs down. In building a round receiver the raw materials are purchased very close to the final OD of the receiver. The outside of the receiver is turned a little oversize in one operation on the lathe and then finished in another operation on an OD grinding machine. These two operations are very simple and quick to do in production. In building the Winchester style receiver the raw materials are purchased rectangular and it takes many different operations to finish the outside of the receiver along with quite a bit of hand polishing. Even with South Dakota being one of the lowest paying states, there is a lot of labor that goes into just the outside of the receiver on a Win style, along with a much much larger pile of chips generated while machining them. The inside of the receivers on round and rectangular require roughly the same treatment therefore costs inside should be very similar. The big firearms manufacurers like Winchester start with forgings and require much less metal to be removed making them much faster to produce.

..did don actually design the 97 action or ugo gussalli?...

Neither...Honestly the action was designed by Winchester long ago. Pete Grisel refined it and added the novel bolt stop before Dakota arms came into being and I'm not sure if it was under Don's direction, somebody at Dakota put it on a mandrel and turned it round. Beretta didn't want it to look like a Dakota so they told us to make the tang look more like a Rem. We welded up the tang, reglassed the stock pattern and sent it back to them. The prototype went back and forth many times changing the style of floor metal...Beretta just had to have detachable magazines, so Don designed.......cough cough choke gaasssp..let me get a glass of water..........Ahhhh that's better. Ok ok so somebody from Dakota bought a spare detachable magazine for a Remington and held it up next to the round "Winchester" receiver we had. Looked like a pretty good fit. Someone at Remington must have been on the ball. Beretta disliked the Rem style mag release and insisted it look like the Argentine Mauser style. So, we ripped the mag box off rem's floorplate and welded it onto a custom Grisel style floorplate. After much deliberation about the increased costs of this style floor metal, and having us hook the stock grip more like a Biesen stock than I origionally shaped they had the MATO.

...just a few more questions, if you don't mind...why walther lothar barrels as opposed to dakota barrels?...are the lothar's special dakota-spec'ed barrels?...

When I started at Dakota we were using Douglas barrels. They came to us rough turned and contoured. After enough customers complained about ripples in the barrel and gaps in the barrel channels Dakota decided to change vendors. Walther produced a very well polished, fairly ripple free, very consistant outside on their barrels for us to our print. The rifling in a Dakota Walther Barrel was nothing different than what Walther sold elsewhere while I worked there. It was the outside dimensions that make it an "exclusive Dakota barrel" I'll have to say Walther did a fantastic job making barrels that dropped in our barrel channel inlet straight off the CNC stock machine. It really saved time and a ton of glass in the stock shop. Chambering on the stainless ones are much more prone to chattering. It's not the same 400 series steel that American makers use. The inside of the Walther barrels I've looked at with a bore scope look VERY good though.

Everything you have read in the magazines about Dakota Arms might not have been true. In some cases you can't blame the writers, because they are supplied info from someone with their own agenda. Kind of like trusting the liberal media to tell you the truth on the evening news!

gunmaker


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atkinson6
.375 member


Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho
Re: ThomasEdwards [Re: thefinegunmaker]
      #10246 - 27/02/04 09:41 AM

DasMafia,
Who referred to the Mauser M-98 as sloppy junk? At any rate he is misinformed, ignorant, and should have his sack split and his leg run through it..


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Dark_Helmet
.333 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA
Re: ThomasEdwards [Re: atkinson6]
      #10247 - 27/02/04 09:49 AM

that would have been Mike375....

and yes, I think that its a fitting punishment...

and dang, I love my new sig!!!

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)


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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39877
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Control round feed or not? [Re: Dark_Helmet]
      #10251 - 27/02/04 10:42 AM

In reply to:



In reply to:

As to the M98 not everyone wants an old sloppy piece of shit that has to be done up ]





Them's fightin' words!!!!

our 30-06 mauser is a home-spum sub-MOA gun my grandfather built 50 years ago... I can assure you that there is nothing "done-up" about it... and it is surely an excellent piece in all respects. it is easily 10-15 times the gun that my M700 25-06 is.






dasMafia

Mike isn't referring to your grandfather's Mauser which may be a fine rifle, well made and work flawlessly.

What he is referring to is some of the Mausers that are around in the marketplace over the last twenty years. Many of them are sloppy and feel loose compared to a modern tight Remington or whatever. Mauser's tend to feel looser generally than some of the more modern actions in my opinion. Doesn't mean the action is crap though just the feel.

Mike375

yes the powder incident could have happened to any action. However I believe it could have been got back into action quicker with a M98. They were designed as military rifles for dirt, dust, mud and snow with greater tolerances in some areas. Want to challenge that? You can but I won't back it up with engineering comments or whatever, its just my opinion and from my personal experience.

Feeding from Mausers is often a problem and requires additional work.

They also usually need positive action to feed a round well. None of this limp wristed feeding Weathingtons need.



But who would want to be seen hunting with a Weatherby????!!!! Yuck!



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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**DONOTDELETE**





Re: Control round feed or not? [Re: NitroX]
      #10253 - 27/02/04 10:57 AM

Nitro,

The powder issue would be at the worst for actions like Rem 700 and Wby Mark V where the back of the barrel is counterbored to take the protruding bolt nose.

In my opinion the best action design is the Model 70 and mainly because of the bedding configuration.

Actually I am very big on matching the rifle to the calibre, at least if the rifle is at a custom or semi custom level. So Mauser = 404, 375 and so on.

The actions I have most commonly owned over the years have been Sako, M70, Rem 700 and Wby. Generally I have always been happiest when the rifles I owned were of the same brand. When I have had a mixture of them at the same time then I continually fall into the trap of comparing them.

Both Mauser and M70 both share in common being actions that were disigned for specific reasons whereas other actions like Rem 700 and Wby Mark V have design features that were marketing driven.

Mike


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luv2safari
.400 member


Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1408
Loc: United States
Re: Control round feed or not? [Re: Mike375]
      #10263 - 27/02/04 12:16 PM

I , for the most part, would have a positive feed by choice. But, after using my friend's Sako Safari Grade 375 on a hunt, I had to have one...push feed or not!

I saved my zukes and found one, complete with Novocain for the Vaseline (OUCH!). At first, I thought I had made a mistake, when it didn't seem to feed from a full magazine. Then I remembered that when using my buddy's, I was hunting and working the bolt like a man, not a limp wrist...

I now love the rifle...push feed and all...and will be using it for plains game and bigger N. American critters. I have to admit that I never feel as comfortable with it as I do my Ruger 416, however, when bite N stompers are the quarry.

Next stop is a DR in 500/416...a Searcy...no feed problems there.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics


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Dark_Helmet
.333 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA
Re: Control round feed or not? [Re: NitroX]
      #10266 - 27/02/04 12:56 PM

Nitro...

apologize for my lack of smilies... was laughing my arse off when I typed that...

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)


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ThomasEdwards
.300 member


Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 246
Loc: Newport Beach, CA
Re: ThomasEdwards [Re: thefinegunmaker]
      #10285 - 27/02/04 04:42 PM

finegunmaker,

...another 'star' for some great insight...you are certainly adding to the lore/mystic of what rightfully should be one of finest stateside gunmakers...imho...and the dakota-beretta tie-up will remain a flash of brilliance that faded much too soon...again imho...


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