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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles

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Woodbeef
.275 member


Reged: 30/12/06
Posts: 82
Loc: Badlands of Alberta
Convert P-17 to 300 H&H or????
      #68429 - 01/01/07 02:54 AM

Ok guys,I have a double sided question here. I can pick up a P-17 that is sporterised for $99. Should I pick it up and convert it to 300 H&H or buy a factory built 300 Win Mag?

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Raff
.300 member


Reged: 12/01/04
Posts: 182
Loc: Texas
Re: Convert P-17 to 300 H&H or???? [Re: Woodbeef]
      #68433 - 01/01/07 03:32 AM

Unless it's been "sporterised" by someone with a
cutting torch and a grinder, go for it. Nice action for
a larger cartridge. It's certainly priced cheap enough.
Raff

--------------------
.


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26994
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Convert P-17 to 300 H&H or???? [Re: Woodbeef]
      #68441 - 01/01/07 04:44 AM

I had a P-17, .30/06 Remington Model 30 that actually had a P-14 action. It is easily distinguished by the magazine cuttout. If the rails are straight, it was originally a .30/06 P-17 action. If there is an enlarged cuttout in the rails, kind of rectangualar in shape, just head of the bolt face(retracted) the action was originally a P-14, .303 action.
: It matters not, except that the real P-17 rails would have to be opened up to feed the magnum case, and the P-14 action will likely feed just fine, as-is. Such was the case of the one I had. Perfect feeding after opening up the bolt face for the mag. case.
; As a .30/06, the barrel was slow - 200fps slower than anything in the books for the identical loads at max pressure, mind you. Only the velocity was low. The barrel was indeed a .308 groove diamter, newly put on by Remington, way back when - late 1940's to 1950's probably.
; I re-chambered it to .300 Win Mag in a hope it would deliver 2,900fps with 180gr. bullets. Re-chambering it only, turned that slow barrel into a fast barrel, delivering 150fps to 200fps higher velocities than the books as well as delivering sub MOA accuracy with select loads. Before, as a .30/06, is wouldn't shoot inside 2 1/2" with anything lighter than 180gr. With 180's and 220's it was a slow, .303 ballistics, 1-1/2"er. As a .300 Winhester magnum, the roles reversed and 165gr. bullets reined supreme. You just never know. This wasn't a problem, as it put 165gr. Failsafes into 1" groups at 3,265fps and with 165gr. Nosler Partitions at 3,365fps made even smaller groups, same POI, same load of H4831SC.
: This indeed was a good move, re-chambring that old, slow .30/06, wasn't it.
: If the gun is in resonable shape, $99.00 is dirt cheap. I'd buy that gun just for the action.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Convert P-17 to 300 H&H or???? [Re: DarylS]
      #68466 - 01/01/07 11:08 AM

Slightly off-topic, but reading Weiland's DGR book brought this query to the front-burner. I believe the correct terminology for the US Enfield was Pattern 1914 or P-14 (.303) and Model 1917 or M-17 (.30-06).

I take Terry Weiland's repeated use of the term 'P-17' to be in error. The only text I have specifically dealing with the P-14 and M-17 is Ian Skennerton's book "The US Enfield", which is a definitive text IMO, and I have checked this in a number of other military texts and rifle encyclopaedias on my bookshelf.

I think we should try to stick to the correct nomenclature wherever possible on these forums, Weiland's enthusiasm notwithstanding! Unless you're into steam locomotives, or HIV genetics, there is no such thing as a "P-17".

And here's another thing: I notice that Americans are hung-up on 'cock-on-closing' for their bolt-rifles, which makes absolutely no sense to me for two important reasons. Firstly, the bolt has the dual role of primary extraction of the case, and cocking the striker. Why put both these functions onto the same bolt-lift, when their resistance is cumulative? Isn't it smarter to do one on the lift, and one on the close, thus seperating their resistance, and avoiding their cumulative effect? The second point involves simple ergonomics: far more force can be exerted by the outstretched arm pushing downwards and inwards, than can ever be brought to bear pushing upwards and outwards! Try it for yourself!

Most Australians of my generation were brought up on Lee Enfields and P-14s, and cock-on-closing is second nature. I stand in awe at the amount of money changing hands within the US custom rifle industry to convert 'cock-on-closing' to 'cock-on-opening', when to me it defies common logic.

Anyway, there, finished.
Back to the virtues of the .300 H&H, which I would roundly endorse (in a properly customised P-14 or M-17) over the .300 Win Mag any day of the week!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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Woodbeef
.275 member


Reged: 30/12/06
Posts: 82
Loc: Badlands of Alberta
Re: Convert P-17 to 300 H&H or???? [Re: DarylS]
      #68467 - 01/01/07 11:09 AM

The gunshop also has a P-14 for the same price. The P-17 has had more done to it. It's been reblued,drilled and tapped,and the barrel is clean and crisp.

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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2437
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: Convert P-17 to 300 H&H or???? [Re: Woodbeef]
      #68479 - 01/01/07 03:58 PM

P-17? Isn't that some sort of airplane? You don't mean 1917 Enfield do you? I have converted a few of those. Never done any on the .300 H&H just the 7 mm Rem Mag, .300 Win Mag. I used the P-14 action to build a pair of 416 Rem Mags.

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Convert P-17 to 300 H&H or???? [Re: DoubleD]
      #68481 - 01/01/07 05:03 PM

Quote:

P-17? Isn't that some sort of airplane?



DD: There was a P-51 and a B-17.........

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Convert P-17 to 300 H&H or???? [Re: DarylS]
      #68488 - 02/01/07 12:01 AM

Daryl

Quote:

; As a .30/06, the barrel was slow - 200fps slower than anything in the books




Could you explain the whys of this?

I have a 300 H&H that is the same way. max I can get is 2700 with the 180. Not even '06.

What causes a 'slow barrel'?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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WyoJoe
.300 member


Reged: 18/02/04
Posts: 234
Loc: Cheyenne, WY USA
Re: Convert P-17 to 300 H&H or???? [Re: Woodbeef]
      #68510 - 02/01/07 05:05 AM

Quote:

I can pick up a P-17 that is sporterised for $99. Should I pick it up and convert it to 300 H&H or buy a factory built 300 Win Mag?




I am a bit predjudiced because I dearly like the .300 H&H. I would say go for it. I have one made by Winchester that I am thinking of doing the same thing. The only draw back is finding brass. It is getting scarce but you can make it from .375 brass fairly easy. Or maybe http://www.qual-cart.com/ can find you some. Having had one I found out early on that it is a handloading proposition.

Buy a factory rifle?? UGH!!! Take a couple of Tylenol and lay down until that thought passes.

--------------------
There comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor polite, nor popular -- but one must ask, "Is it right?"

Martin Luther King, Jr.


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26994
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Convert P-17 to 300 H&H or???? [Re: Marrakai]
      #68591 - 03/01/07 04:53 AM

Quote:

Slightly off-topic, but reading Weiland's DGR book brought this query to the front-burner. I believe the correct terminology for the US Enfield was Pattern 1914 or P-14 (.303) and Model 1917 or M-17 (.30-06).

I take Terry Weiland's repeated use of the term 'P-17' to be in error. The only text I have specifically dealing with the P-14 and M-17 is Ian Skennerton's book "The US Enfield", which is a definitive text IMO, and I have checked this in a number of other military texts and rifle encyclopaedias on my bookshelf.

I think we should try to stick to the correct nomenclature wherever possible on these forums, Weiland's enthusiasm notwithstanding! Unless you're into steam locomotives, or HIV genetics, there is no such thing as a "P-17".

And here's another thing: I notice that Americans are hung-up on 'cock-on-closing' for their bolt-rifles, which makes absolutely no sense to me for two important reasons. Firstly, the bolt has the dual role of primary extraction of the case, and cocking the striker. Why put both these functions onto the same bolt-lift, when their resistance is cumulative? Isn't it smarter to do one on the lift, and one on the close, thus seperating their resistance, and avoiding their cumulative effect? The second point involves simple ergonomics: far more force can be exerted by the outstretched arm pushing downwards and inwards, than can ever be brought to bear pushing upwards and outwards! Try it for yourself!

Most Australians of my generation were brought up on Lee Enfields and P-14s, and cock-on-closing is second nature. I stand in awe at the amount of money changing hands within the US custom rifle industry to convert 'cock-on-closing' to 'cock-on-opening', when to me it defies common logic.

Anyway, there, finished.
Back to the virtues of the .300 H&H, which I would roundly endorse (in a properly customised P-14 or M-17) over the .300 Win Mag any day of the week!



: I've never heard of the M-17 as we've always called them P-17s- obviously in error according to your post - thanks for the correction.
; The .300H&H is a wonderful round, always has been. I've heard some of the guys wiht M70's complaining about case stretching with heavy loads, yet I've never done more than neck size in my .300 Win.mag.- never had to FL size or push shoulders back. I attribute that to the straighter case body and sharper shoulder - makes sense. In addition to that, I could very well do with a .300 H&H- just never had one.
: As to why a certain barrel is slow. I've no answer - some are fast, some are normal and some are slow. I've had them all, of course, so has about everyone. Some barrels are only slow with certain bullet weights. Why? My 6.5RemMag was that way. Using published ballistics with 140gr. and 100gr.my velocities were some 100fps high but not with 120's, running over 100fps slow. This one was an annomoly, though, as usually a slow barrel is slow.
; Sometimes a rifle will have an extraordinarily long throat or leade, which causes excessive bullet jump, which reduces pressure, which in turn reduces velocity. With these rifles, one can normally increase the powder charge until the pressure is up where it should be and then velocities will be correspondingly the same as if it had a normal chamber. In my rifle, max pressure delivered sub-stndard velocties. Nothing I could do. Re-chambing it reversed the situation.
: I don't know what, if anything can be done to 'reverse' a slow barrel. I don't know why mine reversed. I as just sort of ticked it did. Because I generally dislike .300 mags, I sold that rifle for a piddling $150.00 including dies, brass and scope mounts. It was a great shooter after re-chambering, though. My uncle only ever bought 1 box of ammo for it. When I received the rifle after his death, I also go the 'rest' of the ammo, 4 rounds unfired. He had fired 2 shots to check his scope's zero after bore sighting. It was out about 3" to 4" at 100 yards, but that was OK by him. The next 14 rounds took 14 moose. 220 Reminton/Peters KleenBore RN's. I chrono'd the remaining 4 rounds at 2,200fps into 1-1/2" group, 4" right of centre.
: Now it shoots 3,365fps with 1765gr. Noslers, but not by me. My favourite 'rifles' start at .375".

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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