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338X74R
.275 member


Reged: 19/05/04
Posts: 51
Loc: Norway
R.Rodda ?
      #68402 - 31/12/06 08:54 AM

While browsing through previous Christie's auctions, I found this .450/.44 3" N.E. boxlock by R.Rodda for sale at an estimated price of 4,000 - 6,000 British pounds. (about $8000-11000) It remained unsold. The name of the auction was: "EXCEPTIONAL AND FINE SPORTING GUNS AND RIFLES", so I would expect the condition of the gun to be ok.

Description:
Lot Description A .450/.400 (3IN NITRO EXPRESS) DOUBLE-BARRELLED HAMMERLESS BOXLOCK NON-EJECTOR RIFLE BY R. RODDA, NO. 252
Bolstered treble-grip action-body, the heavy side-bolsters and the triggerguard engraved with vignettes of bear, leopard and deer, the whole surrounded by scrollwork, stock with pistolgrip, engraved pistolgrip-cap, cheek-piece and recoil-pad, sling-eyes, the 'Hammered Fluid Steel' chopper-lump barrels with matt sight-ramp, open-sights and ramp-mounted bead-foresight
Weight 10lb. 9oz., 14 5/8in. pull, 24in. barrels, nitro proof
In its brass-mounted leather case, the lid stamped 'HIS HIGHNESS MAHARAO RAJA SIR RAGHUBIR SINGHI SAHIB BAHADUR G.C.I.E., K.C.S.I. CHIEF OF THE BUNDI STATE'

Does anyone know anything about this maker?

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mickey
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Re: R.Rodda ? [Re: 338X74R]
      #68403 - 31/12/06 09:45 AM

Rhoda is a good name. The problem with auctions is that you can not necesarily rely on the descriptions. You need to actually see the rifle to make a judgement.

Perhaps this rifle was lacking something in person?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3595
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: R.Rodda ? [Re: 338X74R]
      #68414 - 31/12/06 01:29 PM

R.B.Rodda retailed guns made by others, mainly from the Birmingham trade, and on the balance of probability, most often by Webley & Scott.

The advertised rifle is perhaps a half-pound on the heavy side for a .400, and not a lot of makers included 'heavy side-bolsters' on their medium-bores. Sound like a very desirable double though, bit of a mystery why it would be passed in.

Not a peep about bore condition in the published description, perhaps that's it...

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
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Re: R.Rodda ? [Re: Marrakai]
      #68443 - 01/01/07 05:51 AM

Yeah, I saw that gun in the catalog before the auction. Friend of mine bought a couple other pieces out of that same auction. The usual kicker with the rifles is bore condition, and the auction houses aren't very good about disclosing it.

Richard B. Rodda was a Birmingham maker who concentrated his marketing on India, so they sold quite a few double rifles. Rodda sold guns and rifles in a wide range of qualities. Most were boxlocks of a particularly uninspiring standard and, unfortunately, it is these that the company is best known for. As a result, Rodda has long been one of the unloved, red headed step children of the British trade. That's not to say that some of their guns were not of good quality. Some exceptional examples exist, but most were below par. I'll have to disagree with Mick. Pricewise, Roddas are no better than no names.

Rodda is said to have had a factory in Whittal Street, and I believe most of their basic boxlocks were possibly built there. None of these that I've handled have non-matching trade maker's numbers on the barrels, which would be the norm had they been built for Rodda by others. However, Rodda did also sell guns built for them by the trade. If Rodda had guns built for them by Webley & Scott, they did so very, very rarely. A few of their backlocks do appear to have possibly been W & C Scott products. For certain, however, none of the boxlocks were. The rifle in question certainly is not. This same bolstered action appears on guns from a number of different retailers, but I've never been able to trace the trade maker. I think Osborne is possible, but can't be sure yet. At any rate, it isn't Rodda's usual fare, and was probably of good original quality.

With the British auctions, due to current exchange, buyer's premium, and VAT on the premium, you have to multiply the hammer price by 2.5 to arrive at total price in US dollars. Thus the low estimate was $10,000. Assuming average bores, that's full FMV for this piece, which is probably why it didn't sell.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3595
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: R.Rodda ? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #68465 - 01/01/07 10:37 AM

Rodda certainly did have 'premises' in Birmingham, though I'm not sure they were factories as such. They were listed at 50 Stafford St in 1908-09, 24 Whittall St from 1910 to 1931, 10 Vesey St from 1932 to 1939, and 17a Steelhouse Lane in 1940. They were listed as 'exporters'.

Neither Nigel Brown nor Douglas Tate give them any press whatsoever as Birmingham 'makers', though admittedly those authors' fine publications are biased towards the shotgun industry. Rodda DRs are (were) fairly common in Australia, almost all imported from India, and they constitute a disproportionate share of the second-hand double rifle market here, considering their omission from Tate's and Brown's texts. That is further cause to question how many they actually made themselves.

Most of the Rodda DRs I have seen appear to have been made by the trade, the only one in my collection at the moment is clearly a W. & C. Scott & Son .500 Express. In my experience, which is perhaps parochial, Mickey's assertion that 'Rodda is a good name' holds true, as I have not examined any that were 'of a particularly uninspiring standard'.

I have not examined the gun in question, however game scene and scroll engraving, engraved trigger guard and grip-cap, fluid steel chopper-lump barrels, pancake cheek-piece and pad, in a brass-mounted oak and leather case with maharajah provenance, does not sound 'uninspiring' to me!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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338X74R
.275 member


Reged: 19/05/04
Posts: 51
Loc: Norway
Re: R.Rodda ? [Re: Marrakai]
      #68484 - 01/01/07 09:56 PM

Thanks for the extensive replies! Do you know it the printed catalogue provides more information / pictures than the info available on the web?

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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: R.Rodda ? [Re: Marrakai]
      #68727 - 04/01/07 05:19 AM

Quote:

Most of the Rodda DRs I have seen appear to have been made by the trade, the only one in my collection at the moment is clearly a W. & C. Scott & Son .500 Express.



I specifically mentioned Scott with respect to the backlocks, which your gun is. The typical Rodda boxlocks don't appear to have been made by the trade.

Quote:

In my experience, which is perhaps parochial, Mickey's assertion that 'Rodda is a good name' holds true,



It is parochial. In the rest of the world, the value of even those of better than usual quality are compromised by the name engraved on them, and thus represent an opportunity to obtain decent quality at a lower than usual price. It's always been that way, and that isn't entirely a bad thing.

Quote:

as I have not examined any that were 'of a particularly uninspiring standard'.



Perhaps you should look at the two on Westley Richards site. These are representative of Rodda's usual fare. Clunk....clunk...clunk, clunk! Compare these to the gun in the auction.

Quote:

I have not examined the gun in question, however game scene and scroll engraving, engraved trigger guard and grip-cap, fluid steel chopper-lump barrels, pancake cheek-piece and pad, in a brass-mounted oak and leather case with maharajah provenance, does not sound 'uninspiring' to me!



I didn't say that gun was uninspiring. I said it was better than Rodda's usual fare.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: R.Rodda ? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #68748 - 04/01/07 10:26 AM

Quote:

It is parochial. In the rest of the world, the value of even those of better than usual quality are compromised by the name engraved on them, and thus represent an opportunity to obtain decent quality at a lower than usual price. It's always been that way, and that isn't entirely a bad thing.



That is my point. Rhoda made good but not great guns. Certainly better than Cogswell and Harrison. The turn of the Century rifles were strong and well built. Perhaps not as pretty as some but a good value. They are still a good value.

I would guess Marrakai has seen as many or more Rhodas in Aus as most people in the US.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3595
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: R.Rodda ? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #68923 - 06/01/07 02:16 PM

400NE:
Can't see any Roddas on the Westley Richards site, am I looking in the right place? http://www.westleyrichards.com/gun/used_guns_1.php
If so, someone must have been inspired by them, as they quickly sold!

Here's a few pics of Rodda guns to hand at the moment.
I have not deliberately omitted any low-grade offerings,
this is merely a reflection of a typical selection of Roddas in my experience.
There are usually a few TLH express doubles around too, but I don't have any photos.

Make up your own mind!

My Rodda .500 No.2


Tomo's Rodda BLE


Rodda 4-bore ULH


Rodda .500 No.2 in NZ


Rodda .450/.400 NE Sidelock


Wally P_'s Rodda .400 sidelock

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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: R.Rodda ? [Re: Marrakai]
      #68946 - 06/01/07 05:13 PM

Quote:

400NE:
Can't see any Roddas on the Westley Richards site, am I looking in the right place? http://www.westleyrichards.com/gun/used_guns_1.php
If so, someone must have been inspired by them, as they quickly sold!

Here's a few pics of Rodda guns to hand at the moment.
I have not deliberately omitted any low-grade offerings,
this is merely a reflection of a typical selection of Roddas in my experience.



Your eyesight is as suspect as your veracity. They're right there in your link, plain as day. There's a .400 and a .475 there. You didn't spend one percent of the effort finding them that you did in cherry picking your list of photos, that's obvious. They've been there for a long time. They're what is representative of Rodda, your cherry picked photos notwithstanding.

Like I said in my original post, there are a few exceptional Rodda's out there, but you chose to ignore that, only because you had a desire to disagree with me.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: R.Rodda ? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #68947 - 06/01/07 05:41 PM

400NE

Looked at the pictures. I know WR pictures are usually nice to look at but reveal very little but what is wrong with those rifles? Plain, well used but the metal work is fine as is the wood to metal fit.

Hard to tell but certainly not junk from the pictures appearance.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3595
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: R.Rodda ? [Re: mickey]
      #68960 - 06/01/07 11:37 PM

OK, found 'em, I had missed the drop-down menu, thanks awfully for your help in directing me to them, 400NE.

...although once again, I find myself disagreeing with you, and agreeing with Mickey. They look to be perfectly sound Birmingham 'working doubles' to me too, certainly not "Clunk....clunk...clunk, clunk!"





BTW 400NE, I find your accusation that I "cherry-picked" those Rodda photos a little offensive, but then it was meant to be, of course. FWIW, they represent the sum total of Rodda photos I had on hand, I omitted none. Your pathological need to call into question the veracity of anyone who disagrees with you, and is able to substantiate their position, is becoming a little tiresome.

Your way or the highway! Ho-hum...

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39896
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: R.Rodda ? [Re: Marrakai]
      #68967 - 07/01/07 01:59 AM

OK, why don't we accept two persons have two different opinions of them. It isn't always necessary to agree.

In the end the market determines the perceived 'quality'. If someone buys the rifles offered for sale, and they end up keeping them, using them and liking them, and perhaps oneday selling them for a profit, then they would still be happy.

Quality can be a very subjective assessment.

Keep posting photos however and the discussions of the rifles, as conflicting opinions can be educational.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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tinker
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Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: R.Rodda ? [Re: NitroX]
      #68972 - 07/01/07 02:33 AM

Marrakai-

Yur Rodda is obviously junk.
You should save your reputation and preserve your safety and the safety of your fellow Australian riflemen and send the thing to me out here in California where I can use it as an educational tool, showing the poor inner city children how guns are bad and dangerous.

Email me for my shipping information.


Gentlemen, thank you for steering Marrakai straight.
We can salvage some good from this after all...

P.S.
Don't forget to include load data, brass, your mould and dies, and a fitting case for the rifle.



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Collath_500BPE
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Re: R.Rodda ? [Re: Marrakai]
      #70047 - 24/01/07 12:52 AM

Hello Marrakai,
your DR is an original W&C Scott production.My 12 GA shotgun
is also an original one.
Regards Johann from Austria

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Collath_500BPE
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Re: R.Rodda ? [Re: Collath_500BPE]
      #70048 - 24/01/07 12:54 AM

A closer pic

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BigFiveJack
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Re: R.Rodda ? [Re: Collath_500BPE]
      #71737 - 17/02/07 01:56 AM

Marrakai,

I believe the CLUNK etc comments by 400NitroExpress are

rooted in the WEIGHT of each of the R. Rhodda Rifles shown

on the WR site. They are HEAVY for the calibers

represented. I think we would ALL agree on that. The pic's

that you put up show nice looking rifles. I can't wait to

find the right rifle for me. I've shot a 577NE and will do

so again! I don't think any U.K. built 577NE will ever be

in my budget, but there's a chance a 500NE might!

--------------------
Cordially,
Jack

NRA Endowment Member
DRSS Member

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Marrakai
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Re: R.Rodda ? [Re: BigFiveJack]
      #71749 - 17/02/07 11:41 AM

Jack:
I had intended to let this thread lie, since it had degenerated somewhat, but a couple of points probably need adding. Firstly, R.B.Rodda & Co didn't build these rifles, or any rifles, as has been previously stated. I tossed a couple of quotes from Wal Winfer's fine publications up on another thread, reproduced here:
Quote:

Regarding Wal Winfer's books on British Single-Shot Rifles, I had occasion to look something up in Volume 3 'Jeffery and the Trade Farquharsons', and found a 2-page chapter on the firm of R.B.Rodda (pages 162-163).

I quote:
"A retailer who had offices both in England and India."

"This is another of the companies who were strictly retailers, they did no manufacturing themselves."

Wal adds that the company must have been substantial as their firearms are seen fairly often, and this is certainly the impression we get in Australia.



The weight of a rifle has little bearing on its build quality, although obviously Rodda would have sourced a line of robust 'working doubles' for sale at affordable prices in the colonies. John Wilkes doubles, for example, were also 'heavy for calibre' in most cases (by today's standards), but the quality of that London maker's wares is indisputable.

I have also since recieved a PM from another forum member who owns a Rodda identical in outward appearance to those on the WestleyRichards.com site, pictured in my last post. His is a .400-3" and weighs exactly 9-1/4 lbs.

I submit this additional info in good faith, merely to add to the corporate knowledge, not to prove anything. I hope you find the DR you are looking for, Jack. I further hope you are not automatically excluding anything with Rodda engraved on the side, on the say-so of the 'expert stripper'!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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BigFiveJack
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Loc: Half hour North of Tampa Bay F...
Re: R.Rodda ? [Re: Marrakai]
      #71752 - 17/02/07 12:13 PM

Marrakai,

For sure, I am not excluding any rifles based on the name

engraved on the side. I don't expect that I will select a

450/400 that weighs over 11 pounds either. 500NE WOULD work

at that weight. You have contact with a person who owns a

9.25 pound 450/400 3" Jeffery calibered rifle, I'd really

like to contact him for info. I would very much like to own

a 450/400 3" under 10 pounds. Not so easy to find... I

sent you a PM several days ago, did it get lost in

cyberspace? And yes, I have received much useful info from

400NE. More than any other poster. And another, J. Tomlinson

from G.B. has supplied me with a mountain of data as well. I

appreciate all who help me. Do I think all souls are

perfect? No, I just soak up what good info I can get and try

to forgive people their faults as I, having NO SHORTAGE of

faults myself, need more than my share of forgiveness from

others. If I offended you with a post I am sorry, sincerely.

--------------------
Cordially,
Jack

NRA Endowment Member
DRSS Member

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3595
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: R.Rodda ? [Re: BigFiveJack]
      #71766 - 17/02/07 05:25 PM

Jack:
The owner of the 9 1/4 lb Rodda DR posts here, so I'm guessing he will contact you directly if he feels inclined. That's up to him, of course.

..and no offence taken from any of your posts, my friend. I'm looking forward to your eventual purchase, so that we can all share once again the 'excitement of discovery' vicariously through your experiences! It gets a bit expensive, having to buy a new double each time we need a 'fix'!

I should add that a ten-pound .400 will not feel heavy if it is well-balanced and has the correct weight distribution. I doubt that you would notice the difference between 9 1/2 lbs and 10 lbs on your shoulder at the end of a day a'field. Both will leave you with an intensely-satisfying dull ache in the trapezius!

Regarding your sent message, I'll check my PMs.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Lee440
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Reged: 06/01/06
Posts: 47
Loc: Texas
Re: R.Rodda ? [Re: Marrakai]
      #72030 - 20/02/07 04:06 PM

Jack, I am the one that has the Rodda. It does, indeed, weigh under 9.5 lbs. and balances nicely. When I bought it at Dallas last year, Tony (N.E.450#2) and MacD37 looked at it and remarked on its handling. Mine looks very much the twin of the one on WR, minus the pitting. Without better pictures of the barrels, I am hard pressed to understand the weight they have listed, but they did have the 475 at Dallas this year and it seemed like a "clunker" balance/weight-wise. It seems that Rodda would sell a rifle fit for a Maharaja or a railroad clerk, with I imagine, the bulk going to the clerks! Mine is very much a "working" rifle but shoots well, The Buff that I shot in TZ last Oct. could not read the name on the side, but died nontheless.(great penetration with the Woodleighs) To me, the 400 at WR ought to be priced at less than 6K from the visible pitting I see on it, I bought mine from George Caswell@ Champlins for $7500, and felt it well worth it.

Marrakai, I bought a reprint of the Rodda centenary catalog that has my rifle in it. Rodda claimed they have their own factory in Birmingham. I was surfing the net and came across a sight that had a story on A.A. Brown with quotes from Sr. and JR. and the elder mentioned that many Birmingham factories including Rodda, shut down when they were building a hiway(post war) that cut thru the heart of the gunmaking district and made relocation an expensive proposition. This is not proof positive, and information about Rodda has been hard to come by... It does make me wonder if they might have had a factory!? I have always been curious about the action of my rifle and who, in the trade might have made it, from the pictures at WR, can you shed any light? Thanks, Lee.

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Rustyzipper
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Re: R.Rodda ? [Re: Lee440]
      #72048 - 21/02/07 12:00 AM

I would gleefully accept any Rodda gun in any condition if quite safe and useable. It would help my plans to hunt larger game than I have hunted in the past. If you wish to help (donate to) my personal non profit hunting organization send me a PM. I will give you the address of my FFL. Thanks. Rustyzipper

--------------------
NMLRA Life, NRA Annual,DRSS, .......

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BigFiveJack
.333 member


Reged: 25/12/05
Posts: 256
Loc: Half hour North of Tampa Bay F...
Re: R.Rodda ? [Re: Rustyzipper]
      #72124 - 21/02/07 12:44 PM

Lee440, Thanks for posting. Can I ask for some details from

you. What action type is your rifle; cross bolt, Webley screw

grip...? That is a very interesting weight for that caliber. If

you are inclined, I would like to see any number of pictures

that you might post. And, if you are thinking of selling, or

know of some one who is, [I'm fairly open on caliber] please

let me know.

--------------------
Cordially,
Jack

NRA Endowment Member
DRSS Member

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