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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Oldest gun
      #68310 - 30/12/06 12:02 AM

When I first started to pick up English rifles, none of them were 100 years old. Now, many years later, quite a few of my rifles are over 100 years in age.

How old are yours?

Do you think anyone in 1906 had a 100 year old rifle and thought about it as a valuable item?

What would have happened to those rifles that would now be 200 years old.

What happens to old rifles anyway? Are they like Elephants and just go to the old rifle graveyard?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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bouldersmith
.375 member


Reged: 23/03/06
Posts: 627
Loc: Boulder Colorado
Re: Oldest gun [Re: mickey]
      #68311 - 30/12/06 01:05 AM

My oldest rifle would be my George Gibb's farky, made in the mid 1880's. I think a few sportsmen may have had a lust for the old days even in 1906. Though my bet is it was a small minority of shooters who held on to these antiquated ideas, similar to todays shooters. It is the rare guy who would rather hunt hard and get in close and do it the old fashioned way. We are lucky to have many folks who understand the value of this experience on our board. Most modern guys preffer to shoot the newest synthetic stocked weatherby magnum, or what ever whizz bang gimmick is being sold by the hunting magizines. I think many old rifles are now in the hands of people who treasure them, and do understand the value they hold. I love hunting with old technology......and black powder, now that is fun. I know of one very fine Westly Richards 8 bore rifle, base fire I believe, manufactured in the 1860's. Oh the stories it could tell. I have a few other vintage rifles, a westly falling block that is comming up on its centenial. Hmmmm where do you take a best quality rifle to celibrate its 100 year birthday? I may have to give deep consideration to my quandry.....it sure is tough having to plan another hunt. Redstag? The Dark continent? so many options.
Steve

--------------------
New website http://www.bertramandco.com

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Oldest gun [Re: bouldersmith]
      #68315 - 30/12/06 02:36 AM

Mick-

Both of my 16b double rifles were built at or around 1860

They were made to a high standard of quality, one of them apparently made for a member of a royal first family.
I shoot them both.
It's easy to assume that they'll still be in service in another 60 years



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Oldest gun [Re: tinker]
      #68347 - 30/12/06 10:56 AM

Discounting the pepper-boxes, Tranter cap'n'ball and early British cartridge revolvers in my collection (which I shoot, BTW), my oldest rifle is a Mk.III Snider 3-band volunteer-pattern by Barnett of London. The Mk.III was approved in 1869, but the Barnett lock is undated. I also regularly shoot a Martini Henry artillery carbine marked 1888.

The oldest double I shoot regularly is an Alexander Henry “best Quality” double barrel 20/.577 express made for a Mr. Furnival Esq. on the 6th of November 1882.

I did come face-to-face with the reality of owning (..and preferring!) vintage firearms when I decided to upgrade the insurance on my collection. I dealt with the firm recommended by the Sporting Shooters Association of Australia, initially through Rob Lowe. I was close to the "send out the paperwork" point when a casual word about antique pistols brought proceedings to an abrupt halt! Turns out they would not insure any firearms more than 20 years old! I couldn't believe my ears, demanded to speak to the manager, etc, but it was true!

I don't own a single firearm younger than twenty years!! ..except a couple registered to my business name. Even my S&W Model 41 target pistol is older than that!

I wonder how many people have been caught by that one, or remain blissfully ignorant that their insurance is not worth squat!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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gatsby
.375 member


Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: Oldest gun [Re: mickey]
      #68382 - 30/12/06 07:36 PM

I have a Harris Holland 10 bore rifle that was made in 1871. Just a border engraved gun but in impeccable condition with a dished water table and beautifully sculpted hammers. The rifle is 135 years old and I have no doubt it will still be around 135 years from now.
I have often wondered if the artisans and makers of these weapons had any idea they would be used and anmired generations after their completion.
I believe there were collectors in 1906 but I don't think anyone would have considered themselves privileged to use and hunt with a gun manufactured in 1806.
Don't you think many of the early guns were just used up? Passed from one hand to another until they were no longer useful?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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Ndumo
.300 member


Reged: 21/12/03
Posts: 230
Loc: Namibia
Re: Oldest gun [Re: gatsby]
      #68388 - 31/12/06 01:24 AM

As this is my only double, please indulge me if I upload a picture. It is believed to be more than 150 years old, still in resonable condition, and still shoots. Made for Rawbone in Capetown, it fires "winged" cast bullets of 460gr, caliber roughly .450. I just love really old rifles, and hope someday to find a client to do a 21 day walk only safari with a 8 or 4 bore, and maybe a light rifle like this one...



--------------------
Karl Stumpfe
Ndumo Hunting Safaris (Pty) Ltd.
karl@huntingsafaris.net
www.huntingsafaris.net
+264 811 285 416

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WVFRED
.300 member


Reged: 17/01/05
Posts: 169
Loc: Charleston WV
Re: Oldest gun [Re: Ndumo]
      #68392 - 31/12/06 03:53 AM

400NitroExpress was kind enough to find the date of manufacture of my Army & Navy.It was made between 1905-06 so it is over 100 years old and used in Africa the past June.

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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Oldest gun [Re: WVFRED]
      #69088 - 08/01/07 12:12 PM

I have a Westley Richards 500/450#1 Express,hammerless double, with selective ejectors, 28" fluid steel barrels with full coverage engraveing on the action and gripcap, trigger guard, and sight bases, has a barred tang safety. It is rifled with Metford shallow (Baker 7 grouve) It has In it's origenal oak& leather case, that was sold out of the London store in 1892.

I have a V. Haffner, hammer Cape gun that is chambered for 20 ga short, and 58 Berdan Carbine. it is a back action side lock, with damascus 28" barrels, is a Jones lever has a beautiful piece of very well formed, what looks like Cercasion walnut, checkered 26 LPI, and with a carved buffalo horn pistol grip, behind the steel trigger guard, and a horn butt plate 1 1/2" thick.

The cartridge the rifle barrel was chambered for wasintroduced in 1869, and very few rifles were ever chambered for either of the Berdan cartridges. More however were chambered for the 58 Berdan musket, and rifles chambered for the carbine cartridge are as scarce as hen's teeth! I can't find any record of this rifle, but I'd say it was made in the early 1870s

I have several other doubles that are surely made more than 100 yrs ago, and they all still shoot fine! Those old rifles are a dream to own, and shoot!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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AkMike
.416 member


Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: Oldest gun [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #69090 - 08/01/07 01:04 PM

Wow! I'm in the running with the rest of you guys. I have several Ballards,rolling blocks,A Alex Henry 450BPE falling block and the Westley Richards 450 #1 Carbine ect. from the 1870 era as well as my pride and joy a John Lyell of Scotland.500 BPE with Damascus tubes.
All of them are still in use!

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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nopride2
.300 member


Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 108
Loc: Seattle, Wa.
Re: Oldest gun [Re: AkMike]
      #69234 - 10/01/07 03:48 PM

I have a Purdey 450 3 1/4 BPE made in 1877.

Dave

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SXS
.224 member


Reged: 17/08/05
Posts: 23
Loc: New Hampshire, USA
Re: Oldest gun [Re: nopride2]
      #69262 - 10/01/07 11:47 PM

It may be of interest here that I have recently acquired the first express rifle ever made. It is Purdey # 4703 a 40 bore 2 groove double. It retains 70% of it's original case colors, 90% barrel brown, and virtualy all of it's original stock finish. It also resides in it's original [numbered to the rifle] mahogany case. Unfortunatly, it is missing all of it's tools. I have not shot it yet, but am working on a temporary mold. Number 4703 is acknowledged by both Unsworth and Dallas, in their books, as the first express. If anyone has a Purdey type or Davis 40 bore or smaller rifle mold that might be available, I would be interested. I can either find or make most of the other bits. Thank-you.

All the best, SXS

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MGA62
.224 member


Reged: 07/10/06
Posts: 4
Re: Oldest gun [Re: SXS]
      #69268 - 11/01/07 02:53 AM

One reason there may not be a lot of rifles/guns older than the 1870's/1880's is that there really was no widespread sport hunting tradition until that time. Hunting was largely market based and people used the best tool available. The hunters of the latter 19th century really developed the traditions which we recall with nostalgia. Hunters before that period would use the latest and most efficient tools available to them, and likely have no attachment to their older "tools". I doubt that gun collecting was an issue anyone even considered during that period. Since they didn't do it, the older guns are not available for us to enjoy.

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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Oldest gun [Re: SXS]
      #69276 - 11/01/07 04:27 AM

Quote:

It may be of interest here that I have recently acquired the first express rifle ever made. It is Purdey # 4703 a 40 bore 2 groove double. It retains 70% of it's original case colors, 90% barrel brown, and virtualy all of it's original stock finish. It also resides in it's original [numbered to the rifle] mahogany case. Unfortunatly, it is missing all of it's tools. I have not shot it yet, but am working on a temporary mold. Number 4703 is acknowledged by both Unsworth and Dallas, in their books, as the first express. If anyone has a Purdey type or Davis 40 bore or smaller rifle mold that might be available, I would be interested. I can either find or make most of the other bits. Thank-you.

All the best, SXS



Okay. Now that calls for pictures and a history. Stop fooling with loading and get the stuff up here for all of us to enjoy.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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SXS
.224 member


Reged: 17/08/05
Posts: 23
Loc: New Hampshire, USA
Re: Oldest gun [Re: mickey]
      #69294 - 11/01/07 09:27 AM

I'm not very adept at this computer stuff, so I can't post a picture; but you can see the rifle at www.goldmedalconcours.com/gmc10 look at "image gallery" you will see it under NRA Cup. You will also see it under vintage hammer gun, but they mixed up this rifle with my Purdey hammer gun. You will also see a K Mauser takedown rifle in .35 Remmington that has been one of my "project guns". There is a lot of other good stuff to look at on this site.

All the best, SXS

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Oldest gun [Re: SXS]
      #69329 - 11/01/07 07:44 PM


My Sidelock Rigby is approx 1905.

I think a couple of the others are pre 1910 so getting close.

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bulldog563
.400 member


Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California
Re: Oldest gun [Re: 500Nitro]
      #69331 - 11/01/07 10:17 PM

1906 so just turned 100 last year. If only guns could talk!!

--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp

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bpesteve
.300 member


Reged: 18/11/03
Posts: 106
Loc: Sunset side up
Re: Oldest gun [Re: mickey]
      #70069 - 24/01/07 09:05 AM

I seem to be stuck in the late 1860s-1870s for cartridge guns. The oldest at the moment is a 16 bore Stephen Grant shotgun from one of his first years as an independent maker, 1867-68. It passed nitro proof in London in the early 1990s, too!



Then there's an 1868 Trapdoor Springfield and a couple of Mk.III Sniders, one military trade pattern and the other an original sporter.



The oldest double rifle is an 1879 vintage oval-bored Lancaster in .450 3-1/4" which went with me to Zambia in '99.



Nothing like 'em these days...

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