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470NEBD
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Reged: 17/11/05
Posts: 57
Loc: ks usa
chapuis DR
      #65539 - 09/11/06 04:37 AM

Chapuis making there Dr in 450/400 caliber? I was looking through the internet and seen some were this rifle was offered in this cal.

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BillfromOregon
.333 member


Reged: 27/10/04
Posts: 254
Loc: Sweetwater, by God Texas
Re: chapuis DR [Re: 470NEBD]
      #65594 - 10/11/06 03:01 AM

470: Evolution Arms in White Bird, Idaho, is finishing out a Chapuis in this caliber. www.evo-rifles.com

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Pilgrim
.275 member


Reged: 25/05/04
Posts: 57
Loc: Washington State, USA
Re: chapuis DR [Re: BillfromOregon]
      #65663 - 11/11/06 04:32 AM

Billfromoregon - Whereabouts? I live in the South central portion of Washington, about 30 mi. above the Ore. border.

Although not specifically about the .400 Jeffrey, but dealing with a Chapuis. I have a Chapuis UGEX 9.3 I bought at the last SCI convention. I'm still fooling around trying to finalize on a load for the rifle. I'm working with Nosler Partitions (286 gr.), Ballistic Tips (250 gr.), and Barnes Triple shocks (250 gr. & 286 gr.) and Barnes monolithic solids (286 gr.). Next up on the list are Swift A frames in 250 gr and 300 gr, and after all of that I'll mostly shoot cast bullets (286 gr. GC) to save my wallet and the Chapuis barrel.

A couple of things I've noticed in working with my rifle:

It is accurate way beyond my expectations. 2 lefts and rights with factory S&B will group into about 1" at 100 yds (scoped & benchrested). A second thing is that how I hold the rifle on the bench can make a HUGE difference in how it groups. If I hold it like I would my .45-70 (7# rifle, w/ 425 gr cast @ 2000 fps...ouch ) or .338, I can alter point of impact at 100 yds by ~ 9" with the barrels crossing. The left barrel will be about 4 -5" to the right of the point of aim & vice versa for the right barrel. With heavy recoiling rifles I hold them quite firmly to reduce muzzle flip and pain on my cheekbone. Since the result of my technique is so significant, I am working on my shooting technique with this rifle to be sure the load being tested is the rifle and not me. I'm not sure just when I will trust my technique enough to use the rifle for hunting. I'm pretty hard on myself when it comes to bullet placement on a critter. My ultimate goal is to have a load that is sufficiently accurate I can use the rifle out to 300 yards if needed. Factory loads (286 gr.) chronograph at 2230 fps instrument (~10' to the center screen).

As far as books go, I usually buy any I can get that contains a discussion on double rifles if the book is priced reasonably. The Gregor Woods tome "Rifles for Africa" is not particularly kind re: double rifle accuracy. Too bad as he is wrong in that regard, at least as far as my experience and research relative to the Chapuis rifles. Oh well, maybe that will make more DR's available for us that know different. FWIW......Pilgrim


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BillfromOregon
.333 member


Reged: 27/10/04
Posts: 254
Loc: Sweetwater, by God Texas
Re: chapuis DR [Re: Pilgrim]
      #65669 - 11/11/06 08:05 AM

Pilgrim: Unfortunately for me I am 30 miles from the California border in the Rogue Valley, or I would ask nicely if I could cross the river and come see your Chapuis, as I would love one in 9.3X74. I have heard from a number of sources that Chapuis and Merkel doubles in this caliber can be eerily accurate. Thanks for bringing up the hold sensitivity, though. Have you worked with it off sticks at 100?
Bill


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Rusty
.333 member


Reged: 08/02/03
Posts: 464
Loc: Missouri City, Texas
Re: chapuis DR [Re: BillfromOregon]
      #65671 - 11/11/06 08:54 AM

NE450#2 shot a Coyote at Camp Cooley a couple of years ago with his scoped 9.3X74R Chapuis. The withnessed and Lasered range was 270 yards. Both barrels found their mark!

I'm looking forward to getting my rifle perhaps on February.
My Chapuis will be from Evolution in 9.3X74R.

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!

DRSS


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Pilgrim
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Reged: 25/05/04
Posts: 57
Loc: Washington State, USA
Re: chapuis DR [Re: BillfromOregon]
      #65673 - 11/11/06 10:01 AM

I haven't worked off of sticks as of yet. At least not for more than a couple of shots as a sort of "familiarization" kinda deal. When I finally get my act together on technique I expect little to no trouble settling on loads. Then it will be time to get down to "serious" (yeah, right ) practice in all kinds of positions including offhand and off of "sticks".

FWIW - I had the triggers lightened and the buttstock cheek lowered a smidgeon. The triggers were on the order of 8# on the front and 12# or more for the rear. The stock was also too high for me to use the open sights properly. I suspect keeping my cheek out of harms way was the reason I was able to get good groups immediately (see my earlier post re: technique). In any case, without the trigger work, the ability to actually work on loads and accuracy was pretty poor. One other thing that surprised me was the extremely short throw on the tang safety between on & off. I doubt it moves much more than 1/16". It's not a problem once you get used to it, but was sure enough a surprise compared to my experience with my other previous tang safety equipped firearms.

Pilgrim


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500Boswell
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Reged: 21/07/06
Posts: 1276
Loc: Queensland
Re: chapuis DR [Re: Pilgrim]
      #65677 - 11/11/06 02:02 PM

Pilgrim from what you are saying it sounds like doubles are incredibly finicky ! from excellent groups to woeful groups just from small differences in ''holding'' while firing !!! A gunshop owner gunsmith told me that even when a different person shoots a double ,even when holding it Exactly the same way it can shoot differently ! !!! maybe why doubles have alway been a Short range weapon ?? is that right ??

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: chapuis DR [Re: Pilgrim]
      #65682 - 11/11/06 02:27 PM

Pilgrim:

I would strongly suggest that you discontinue shooting the Barnes X and Solids is your gun. Barnes doesn't make a bullet that is appropriate for double rifles. Double rifles are intended for use with conventional lead core bullets. I've had personal experience with a 9.3 wrecked with Barnes X and the solids are worse. The Chapuis 9.3 is of particular concern because the barrel walls are quite thin, and I know of a Chapuis that had barrel damage from the X. I'm pretty sure that Chapuis doesn't warrant their barrels for use with monos. I'd suggest that you read some of the old strings here about using mono-metal bullets in doubles.

I tinkered with the 300 grain Swift A Frame some years ago, and I would caution you to avoid it as well. It has a homogenous section in the middle and the shank is very hard. Woodleigh makes some fine 9.3 bullets that are perfect for your double.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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Pilgrim
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Reged: 25/05/04
Posts: 57
Loc: Washington State, USA
Re: chapuis DR [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #65687 - 11/11/06 04:08 PM

400NitroExpress - Thanks for the input. I've followed the discussion(s) on this board re: monolithics for a couple of years now. As best I can tell, using hard bullets can be iffy if you own a pre WWII DR, but should be OK for any of recent manufacture. That being said, I haven't fired any of them as of yet and may not. I've probably got a couple hundred $ worth of 9.3mm Swift and Barnes bullets sitting on the shelf, so I am going to think and research on the subject some more. I've waited this long to acquire the rifle, I can wait a bit longer before (if ever) I use those bullets. I will stay away from those hard bullets until I have had a chance to talk to the dealer from whom I bought the rifle, and also to the Chapuis folks at the next SCI convention. I have noticed how thin the barrels are on my rifle, plus my barrels mike out at .3640" (left) and .3645" (right), so a .3660" hard bullet is going to stress the barrels perhaps a bit more than normal. As a result I haven't been all that confident in using those hard bullets.

As I noted above, I am most definitely a neophyte when it comes to DR's, so I very much appreciate your advice and concerns. I've been reading and studying about DRs for way more years than might seem reasonable (upwards of 50 I think), but the prices for one was always just a bit out of my reach. I just finally decided to buy one (money be damned! ) as I had a heart problem a year and a half ago and am not all that sure how many years I might have left. It's in His hands, so I don't worry about it any too much, but...I"m an engineer/scientist and pragmatic so to ignore the past when considering the future doesn't seem any too wise in my mind. Anyway, now I finally have my DR. Pilgrim


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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: chapuis DR [Re: Pilgrim]
      #65734 - 12/11/06 08:17 AM

Pilgrim:

No, it has nothing whatsoever to do with age.

On a trip to England back in '92, I unexpectedly had a few days to kill in London, so I spent the time making the rounds of the London gunmakers. David Winks (formerly Holland & Holland shop foreman) told me the story of a new Royal .465 they had recently built for a customer that was to be used primarily for elephant hunting. The client insisted that the rifle be regulated with monolithic solids. Such bullets were still relatively new then, but enough DRs had come through the shop with overstressed rifling for them to figure out what was causing it, and Holland begged off responsibility if a problem arose. By the time the regulator had finished his work, visible, severe overstressed rifling was present and the barrels were scrap. The client was out the cost of new barrels. This was a brand new rifle, unfinished and still in the white. Not long after, Ross Seyfried included the story of this gun in a DGJ article. A couple of years ago, a good friend had the occasion to check into the cost of re-barreling a Holland .465. It was close to $30,000 then. Do you really think Holland uses anything but the best chopper lump blanks?

I heard from a fellow some years ago that was shooting Barnes X in a new Chapuis 9.3. The ribs came loose. Chapuis fixed it, and he went back to shooting the X. It happened again, and Chapuis balked at fixing it the second time. When he told them what he was shooting in it, they said "Oh. Don't do that any more." The perceived benefit (entirely mental) isn't worth it.

You might want to consult the folks at Champlin. They sell Chapuis, and J. J. Perodeau has his shop there. J. J. is a Liege trained gunmaker who works on double rifles every day, and has seen just about every kind of DR barrel malady there is. He re-barrels DRs. Pretty sure he is one of Chapuis' warranty guys in the US, at least I know that he has done warranty work for them. I can tell you just about word for word what he will say.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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Pilgrim
.275 member


Reged: 25/05/04
Posts: 57
Loc: Washington State, USA
Re: chapuis DR [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #65737 - 12/11/06 11:41 AM

OK...will do re: Champlins & JJ.

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Pilgrim
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Reged: 25/05/04
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Loc: Washington State, USA
Re: chapuis DR [Re: Pilgrim]
      #65839 - 14/11/06 05:57 AM

400NitroExpress - JJ is out of the office for another couple of weeks or so, so I spoke with George Caswell. His (Mr. Caswells) advice is that the Barnes Triple Shocks are OK, while the monolithics are too hard. The Triple Shocks are a newer design than the older X bullets and have grooves cut into them for "relief" to reduce pressures. I suspect that modification made them OK for DRs as well. I'll stay away from the monolithics. Thanks again for the heads up. Pilgrim

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
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Re: chapuis DR [Re: Pilgrim]
      #65841 - 14/11/06 07:26 AM

Yes, J. J. is out until the 20th. George is an old friend, but he's cracked on this one. The TSX is no better than the X or the Super Solid with respect to doubles. I'll be sure to kick him in the shin for that one when I see him in January. I doubt J. J. will agree with him either.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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Pilgrim
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Reged: 25/05/04
Posts: 57
Loc: Washington State, USA
Re: chapuis DR [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #65842 - 14/11/06 08:02 AM

I suspect you'll be kicking him in the shin at the SCI in Reno. If so, perhaps I'll put a bandaid on his shin after you kick it. I'll wait until I hear from JJ. Perhaps we will meet at the SCI convention. I would like that. Pilgrim (aka Duane Bogen)

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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: chapuis DR [Re: Pilgrim]
      #65843 - 14/11/06 08:42 AM

No, I'm not making it to Reno this year, but I'll seem him at DSC. Come to think of it, I'll be at Champlins in a couple of weeks. I'll get both of 'em together and we'll hash it out. Will you make it to DSC?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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Pilgrim
.275 member


Reged: 25/05/04
Posts: 57
Loc: Washington State, USA
Re: chapuis DR [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #65847 - 14/11/06 09:40 AM

No, I don't believe I will make it to DSC. It's one helluva long way from this boys crib although I would like to attend the DSC one of these days. I have family down in Victoria, TX and could perhaps arrange a combination trip about that time of year. The fishing on the flats for specks and redfish is great that time of year to boot.

Please keep me advised via this board or PM me re: your discussions w/ the two of them. Dave Moore (of William, Larkin & Moore) just weighed in a bit ago. I called him before I called Champlins, and he just returned the call. Dave Moore said that the "new metals and heat treatments" make the Barnes bullets (all of 'em as near as I can tell from his comments) OK in the Chapuis. I bought the rifle from them (new) at the 2006 SCI, and I suspect they will stand behind the rifle if it goes south due to those bullets. That being said, this rifle is too doggone accurate for me to take any chances of screwing it up, so I believe I'll just hang tight until you get a chance to discuss same with George & JJ. So far (all from people I respect as having knowledge and no "axe to grind") I've been advised that 1) all of the Barnes bullets are bad for a DR, 2) only the Barnes monolithic solids are bad for a DR, and 3) all of the Barnes bullets are OK for DR's. I guess at this point "I pays my money and takes my chances", but I think I'll hold on a bit longer all the same.

I bought both the Barnes and Swift bullets at the SCI show. I don't know where/what the availability of the Woodleighs are for the 9.3 mm. However, I knew that jacketed bullets for the 9.3mm are mail order at best from my home, and often are not in stock via that route, so I bought 'em while I had the chance. I will shoot cast bullets out of the rifle far more that jacketed, but not all guides/PH's believe a CB will perform as well as they do. The only reason I bought the solids is I hope to someday make the trip to Africa for Plains game. If/when I go, all of my reading and research indicates that I should have a few solids along while wandering the African landscape. The 9.3 X 74R is not a DG rifle per se, but apparently will do a respectable job on DG with well placed shots, or so I've read. Rather than deal with any hassle with a PH re: cast bullets, I decided to have jacketed loads worked up and just go with those.

My experience with good cast bullets would indicate that at the velocities at which the 9.3 X 74R will be moving them, they will behave much like solids with only slight mushrooming if they hit bone. At least that is what the last cast bullets I stuck thru a moose did. I would use those instead of solids if I though a PH would permit it. Unless you have actually seen a CB perform on game, it's hard to believe all of the folderol we go through to buy and use "premium" bullets. Bullets designed to penetrate and mushroom are definitely better than a CB since more often than not a CB will simply penetrate, punching a hole all the way through the critter. At least intellectually that would seem to be the case. Anyway.... Pilgrim


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Pilgrim
.275 member


Reged: 25/05/04
Posts: 57
Loc: Washington State, USA
Re: chapuis DR [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #66101 - 01/12/06 03:24 PM

Did you perhaps get a chance to talk to George and/or JJ about the Barnes TSX and banded solid in my Chapuis? TIA

Pilgrim (aka Duane Bogen)


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NE450No2
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Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: chapuis DR [Re: Pilgrim]
      #66166 - 02/12/06 07:16 AM

Pilgrim
I have been using a 9,3x74R Chapuis for several years including 3 Safaris to Africa.
I have taken Giraffe, Buff and Elephant with the 9,3, as well as all manner of plains game, deer pigs, black bear, bobcat, coyotes etc.

One of our Aussie members had his Chapuis break the solder between the bbls by shooting Barnes bullets in his Chapuis, twice.
The Chapuis factory told him to stop doing it.

I would not shoot them in mine.

I can recommend 4 bullets for use in the Chapuis 9,3

The 286gr Nosler Partition has done very well on game up to and including zebra.

The 286gr. Woodleigh Soft is my favorite soft for the 9,3.
I have taken game from turkey, and deer, to zebra and cape buff.

It is a good bullet that can do it all.

For a solid I recommend the 286gr Woodleigh.
I have used it on turkeys, caracal, [where I do not want to damage meat or hide] and on giraffe and elephant.

For a cheap practice bullet, perfectly good for deer sized game try the 270 Speer.
I have killed deer and pigs, one pig weighed @ 300 lbs, with this bullet.

Go to www.accuratereloading.com and research some of my posts.

I think the Chapuis 9,3x74R double, with scope in QD mounts, is one of the best hunting rifles on the planet.


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Pilgrim
.275 member


Reged: 25/05/04
Posts: 57
Loc: Washington State, USA
Re: chapuis DR [Re: NE450No2]
      #66180 - 02/12/06 10:03 AM

Thanks for the info...know anybody who has a hankering for some TSX (250 & 286 gr.) and banded solids (286 gr.) in 9.3?

Pilgrim


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