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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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DarylS
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: Bill_Cooley]
      #98111 - 02/03/08 01:25 PM

Quote:

Let me revive this old thread by saying the .458 of today is not the cartridge of 30 years ago.
The vast improvements in powder have made it the cartridge it meant to be. The advantage of the Lott is you can get the same velocity with less presser.
Bill


;
; I'll continue that sentence with: - which is pretty much a moot point today.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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hoppdoc
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: DarylS]
      #98121 - 02/03/08 03:28 PM

Personally, I'll take the longer Lott cartridge getting the 500 gr solid 2150+ fps at lower pressure any day in 120+ degree african heat.I don't want or need the full 2300++fps the Lott cartridge is capable of. Others may feel they do not want/need the protection of a "lower pressure" round but the reliability added is comforting to me.

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SuperX
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: es]
      #98180 - 03/03/08 10:14 AM

tip: Accurate 2520; i've drove a 500 (old Hornady soft or solids) to 2150 with much less head expansion and primer flattening than with slow (2010 '/sec) WW factory loads (that's in an original M70 458 African, 25"). I can't think of a better powder for 458.

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DarylS
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: SuperX]
      #98183 - 03/03/08 10:38 AM

Super X - there are a number of powders which give similar results.
: Personally, I'd prefer a .416 Taylor with a 400gr. soft and solids at about 2,420fps at very safe and even pressures no matter the temperature.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DGR375
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: DarylS]
      #98185 - 03/03/08 10:45 AM

One aspect not mentioned in any comments I've seen around is that of reliable feeding. Often observed at Big Game Rifle Club Group 2 Nitro matches is a failure to feed in rapid fire situations: the rounds jack up and cause a jam, attributed to the straight wall case. What have been your experiences? The word I have heard is that the extra length of the 458 Lott helps overcome this (alleged) problem.

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bonanza
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: DarylS]
      #98187 - 03/03/08 10:45 AM

"i've drove a 500..."

How about:

"I have driven a 500..."

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4seventy
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: DGR375]
      #98220 - 03/03/08 04:36 PM

Quote:

One aspect not mentioned in any comments I've seen around is that of reliable feeding. Often observed at Big Game Rifle Club Group 2 Nitro matches is a failure to feed in rapid fire situations: the rounds jack up and cause a jam, attributed to the straight wall case. What have been your experiences? The word I have heard is that the extra length of the 458 Lott helps overcome this (alleged) problem.



My experience with the .458 Win mag is that it is not the easiest of cartridges to get to feed perfectly. Especially when the rifle holds 5 or so in the mag like the big Brno's.
Getting all the cartridges to feed reliabaly from both sides of the mag box can be tricky to say the least.
Rifles that only hold 3 in the mag are easier to get the feed right IMO.
458's usually feed better with spitzer bullets rather than the big round nose projectiles as well.
With a rifle which is set up to feed the .458 Lott cartridge, I do wonder how well that same rifle would feed the shorter .458 Win cartridge.

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4seventy
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: Bill_Cooley]
      #98223 - 03/03/08 04:51 PM

Quote:

Let me revive this old thread by saying the .458 of today is not the cartridge of 30 years ago.




Good point.
I often wonder how many REAL dramas actually occurred way back with the .458 Win mag.
Most of the so called problems centered around the writings of one man, Jack Lott, and his being tossed by a buff.
Other writers have gotten plenty of mileage out of Jack's incident, and the story seems to have changed quite a bit from the original one.
Much of the bad press comes from people who have never experienced any actual problems themselves with the cartridge.
These guys just repeat what they've read or heard or what they want to believe, and often the true story gets lost along the way.
Most people I know who have plenty of first hand experience with the .458 Win in the field, are quite happy with its performance and reliability.

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Mike_McGuire
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: 4seventy]
      #98230 - 03/03/08 05:20 PM

I have owned 4 458s at different times. The first was about 1970 and was a M70 with the 22 inch barrel. Over the Oehler 10 (the first Oehlers with paper screens) the 500 grain FMJ Winchester factory load did 1960 f/s. I remember the velocity well because I got the Oehler just after the 458 and remember the velocities of different calibres I first chronographed.

As a side note that Oehler cost $175 which at the time was about the same price as a Sako in 270.

Feeding with straight sided cases and with blunt bullets is always less reliable than with spitzers or with bottle neck calibres. With blunt bullets something like a 458 only needs to be slightly off line and the bullet will catch the edge of the chamber.

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Marrakai
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #98243 - 03/03/08 10:13 PM

4seventy:
Jack's much-publicised late shot on that buffalo has probably over-shadowed the true problems, one of which was that the original powder charge was compressed, and would expand over a year or two in storage as the powder began to break down in Africa's tropical climate. This pushed the bullets out to varying degrees. Game Departments that had laid-in a large stock of ammo for elephant control were experiencing feeding problems due to the over-length cartridges hanging-up in the mag box, and erratic ignition from the degraded powder. This has been reliably reported a number of times, but the exact references escape me at the moment.

Modern 2150 fps loads with single-base powders, especially the ADI range (=Hodgdon 'Extreme'), do not need to be compressed, and don't break down in decades.

The .458 Win Mag handloaded today is indeed the cartridge the original designers had hoped for all those years ago.

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Marrakai
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--------------------------------
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4seventy
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: Marrakai]
      #98245 - 03/03/08 10:28 PM

Marrakai,
I remember Lott did an article in one of the American hunting mags called something like "458 Win the True Story".
It explained why there was so much noise about powder compression and squib loads with the 458.
I have the article here somewhere and will try and track it down as there were quite a few interesting things written in it.

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9.3x57
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: Marrakai]
      #98291 - 04/03/08 09:27 AM

Quote:

4seventy:
Jack's much-publicised late shot on that buffalo has probably over-shadowed the true problems, one of which was that the original powder charge was compressed, and would expand over a year or two in storage as the powder began to break down in Africa's tropical climate. This pushed the bullets out to varying degrees. Game Departments that had laid-in a large stock of ammo for elephant control were experiencing feeding problems due to the over-length cartridges hanging-up in the mag box, and erratic ignition from the degraded powder. This has been reliably reported a number of times, but the exact references escape me at the moment.

Modern 2150 fps loads with single-base powders, especially the ADI range (=Hodgdon 'Extreme'), do not need to be compressed, and don't break down in decades.

The .458 Win Mag handloaded today is indeed the cartridge the original designers had hoped for all those years ago.



I have no dog in this fight but Mike LaGrange who is stated to have shot 6,000 elephants has essentially written this verbatim. He promoted A-Square ammo in his c.1994 book, but the points were:

1} There was a problem

2} There isn't anymore.

He also states a couple times his affinity for the .458.

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JabaliHunter
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: 9.3x57]
      #98323 - 04/03/08 10:44 PM

Answer - old powders. And cheap rifles that don't feed, but that is true of any calibre.

Edited by JabaliHunter (04/03/08 10:53 PM)

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DarylS
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #98361 - 05/03/08 03:47 AM

9three and Jabal - you are missing the point - don't cloud the issue here with facts - the 'trendy' thing to do today is to crank up the .450 Lott and run down the .458 WM because it's 'the thing to do, don't you know' and because you can burn a lot more powder to get the same ballistics if you use the bigger boiler room - that's a fact.
: I'm surprised someone hasn't necked up the .416 Rigby to .458 just to run down the Lott 'in turn'- afterall, you can get the same ballistics at much lower pressures - of course, you would neck the .5 Browning down to .458 and get the same 2,150fps ballistics at much lower pressures than the Rigby/WTBY cases. Pretty soon, we'll be dealing in negative pressures - HA!

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Sarg
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: DarylS]
      #98372 - 05/03/08 05:51 AM

I say Daryl : I think Rigby did neck up the 416 to 450 Rigby ,only a bit less than 460 how ever (same case, just no belt ?) so not really a down load Eh !
All your points are well noted !
But now i,m worried about the bad feeding of the short case ??
It has not let me down after over 20 years ,but you just never know ?

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JabaliHunter
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: DarylS]
      #98373 - 05/03/08 05:52 AM

You're not wrong there! Winchester has obviously stopped giving nice freeby custom .458s to the likes of Boddington, Wieland, Simpson, et al.
Rigby tried necking up the .416 to make the .450 Rigby, but I don't know how popular it as been. Certainly not as hyped as the Lott! As far as I know, it is pretty much a .460 Weatherby without the belt, but I could be mistaken. I'm sure a necked down .5 BMG would be fun, but I wouldn't want to have to rack the bolt in a hurry with a charging ele or buff coming my way, thats for sure!

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DarylS
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #98406 - 05/03/08 02:07 PM

With a solid solid, I don't think you'd need a second shot on that elephant - provided, of course, you hit where you are supposed to. With practise, and enough of an energy absorbing recoild system, I think the bolt would rack plenty fast enough - given the right incentive.
; I've not heard of the .450 Rigby. The case base is virtually identical to a Wtby. Where'd you think WTBY got the measurements for his .378 from? John Buhmiller gave him the idea to neck it up to .458. Old John called it simply his .450 magnum and said it was too fast and penetration was reduced, even with Kynock solids. He cut the speed to 2,200fps and called that the ultimate. WTBY, of course, had to push them as fast as possible and keep the pressure up over 60,000PSI.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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BFaucett
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: Sarg]
      #98975 - 12/03/08 12:38 AM

Quote:

I say Daryl : I think Rigby did neck up the 416 to 450 Rigby .....



Correct.



http://www.new-kynoch.apt-sites.com/cartridge%20range.htm

-Bob F.

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DarylS
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: BFaucett]
      #98976 - 12/03/08 01:19 AM

Tks Bob - really soft loaded it, too. Good thing the bigger bores don't mind that sort of thing. I've had small calibres that needed to be loaded to the nuts to shoot well.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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