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Hunting >> Hunting in Africa & hunting dangerous game
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shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
A little experiment....
      #64195 - 18/10/06 03:58 AM

So let's try a little experiment...... the majority of the shots I've seen stuffed up over the last few years are up or downhill. It doesn't matter how much you think you know to shoot high or low to compensate. - In the heat of the moment, a lot of hunters forget to allow for that compensation.......

So, find yourself an up or down hill gradient of.... ummm, let's say about 30 or 35 degrees and set up 3 targets.... not side by side, but one behind the other behind the other. - About half a metre between each target (which is about the width of a Buffalo)....... then try to take a couple of reasonably quick shots and remember that the object of the excercise is to hit the bull on the centre target..... where the heart of the Buff will be.

Then, post your results...........


--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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Rick_R
.300 member


Reged: 03/07/03
Posts: 117
Loc: WV, USA
Re: A little experiment.... [Re: shakari]
      #64335 - 20/10/06 02:03 PM

Off to the range tomorrow to requalify the members of another agency. Easily enough done, what range would be appropriate?

I'd think three IPSC style targets set as described and shoot for the center of the middle one...

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shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: A little experiment.... [Re: Rick_R]
      #64337 - 20/10/06 03:16 PM

30 yards sounds about right to me....

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: A little experiment.... [Re: shakari]
      #64343 - 20/10/06 09:50 PM

I would think that with rifle velocities that no compensation at all would be needed at all at thirty yards.

The easiest way to verify this is to get the laser range finder from Opti-logic for archery which measures the actual vertical angle down or up and gives you a corrected horizontal distance to shoot.

I have ordered a laser range finder for rifles out to 1000yds to compensate for the various angles uo and down when shooting in the mountains.Be aware that serious adjustments in holdover are needed at distance when hunting steep angles in the mountains.That 350 yd upward shot may actually just shoot horizontally like 275.

Does it matter?? At signifigant distance you betcha!! At 30 yards my gut says It comes down to shooting technique and shouldering the rifle at speed at a different shooting angle than horizontal but that can be verified easily.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (20/10/06 09:55 PM)

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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: A little experiment.... [Re: hoppdoc]
      #64349 - 21/10/06 12:36 AM

From my experience it's the most commonly stuffed up shot of all........ but the range doesn't matter. Whether it's 30 or 300 yards the angle of compensation will be the same. The factor that would alter shot placement is the angle of the hill.

It's not bullet drop that stuffs it up, it's the fact that the hunter (incorrectly) thinks of the animal as a one dimensional target and places his bullet where it would be if the shot were on flat ground. As it's not, the bullet doesn't hit the vitals at all and merely causes a non fatal wound. - which is the point of placing the targets like that. - The centre target represents the engine room of the animal - but of course, that target is obscured by the target in front of it, which represents the outside skin of the animal.........

The object of the excercise isn't to test your knowledge of bullet drop - the hunter should know that before he goes hunting..... the object of the excercise is to see how well the hunter can place his bullet in the engine room on an up or down hill shot......

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (21/10/06 02:56 AM)

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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2451
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: A little experiment.... [Re: shakari]
      #64353 - 21/10/06 04:15 AM

Steve's example also apply to animals quartering to you especially if you don't quite see the quarter and think the animal is square. Aim at the animal vitals as if square when it is quarter the bullet will go in front or behind the heart.


--------------------
DD, Ret.

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Yochanan
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Reged: 26/01/03
Posts: 912
Loc: Volksdiktatur Schweden
Re: A little experiment.... [Re: DoubleD]
      #64360 - 21/10/06 07:21 AM

Steve,
a 30 degree angle and 300 yards. So, in order to hit the target one should aim the gun as if the animal were only 261 yards away not 300 yards….. and for the 70 yard shot with 60 degree downslope to hit the target one should aim the gun as if the animal were only 35 yards
http://www.wildsheep.org/magazines/article_uphill_shooting.htm

Cheers
Johan



--------------------
© "I have never been able to appreciate 'shock' as applied to killing big game. It seems to me that you cannot kill an elephant weighing six tons by ´shock´unless you advocate the use of a field gun." - W.D.M. Bell: Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter.

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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2451
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: A little experiment.... [Re: Yochanan]
      #64376 - 21/10/06 12:26 PM

Johan it's not the distance to the target it's your point of aim on the animal.

If the animal is standing 90 dgrees to you the point on the animals side that you aim to hit the heart is in direct line with the heart. If the animal is above or below you as in Steve's example or quartering to or away from you in my example and you aim at that point on the animals side that you would have aime for a 90 degree heart shot you are going to miss the heart.

Archers who shoot on 3D targets quickly learn this.






--------------------
DD, Ret.

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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: A little experiment.... [Re: DoubleD]
      #64381 - 21/10/06 03:39 PM

Double D has got it absolutely right. - I'm not referring to bullet drop at all, I'm referring to bullet placement and how so many hunters wound animals on up/down hill shots because they only see the animal as a one dimensional target, get the initial shot placement wrong and then miss the engine room. This happens most with large/wide bodied animals such as Buff as the wider the target the more the error is magnified. Add on the fact that Buff are so tough when they have a non fatal wound and you'll see how important it is to get the first shot right.

The article Johan provided was probably written by someone with a lot of target shooting experience but may perhaps have been light on hunting experience. - He doesn't even mention the point I'm trying to make. - Admittedly the article was written with regard to sheep hunting.... and sheep are a hell of a lot smaller than a Buffalo, so the error will not be so large. - So in his defense, maybe it's not as important when hunting sheep........ I've never even seen any of the sheep you huys hunt, so can't really comment on that.....

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (21/10/06 03:48 PM)

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Yochanan
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Reged: 26/01/03
Posts: 912
Loc: Volksdiktatur Schweden
Re: A little experiment.... [Re: shakari]
      #64407 - 22/10/06 07:36 AM

Steve, if you wish to verify the author’s credentials or experience I suggest you contact wild sheep, or why not ask at their forum? Most of the writers appear to be dedicated hunters. www.wildsheep.org. Target shooters and tactical community mostly discuss moa click’s, Atrag’s and lots of other technical details etc.

Why do you think they screw up in first place, poor knowledge of the animals anatomy, or not able to visualise properly?

Cheers
Johan

--------------------
© "I have never been able to appreciate 'shock' as applied to killing big game. It seems to me that you cannot kill an elephant weighing six tons by ´shock´unless you advocate the use of a field gun." - W.D.M. Bell: Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter.

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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: A little experiment.... [Re: Yochanan]
      #64424 - 22/10/06 03:26 PM

Johan,

I wasn't criticising the author, just noting that it was interesting that there was no mention of this...... I did in fact, contact the mag and they were quite keen on the idea of having someone write about the subject.......... I'd never heard of the mag before, but will try to get my hands on a copy.

As to why it happens so often.....hmmmm, my guess is that in the heat of the moment, the hunter simply forgets that one should make allowance for this. - This thread has already proved that the up/down hill factor just doesn't occur to some people. - It's almost certainly made worse by the (very understandable) fact that most hunters don't very often hunt such large animals - and the larger the animal, the larger the error. Make the mistake on an impala and you'll probably still hit it somewhere lethal, do it with a Buffalo and the bullet just passes through the withers or similar non letal area.........

Whatever the reason, I had 4 seperate hunters this year make this error........ and it makes for some very interesting follow ups........

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: A little experiment.... [Re: shakari]
      #64427 - 22/10/06 09:32 PM

The same reason this is the most stuffed up shot on buff is the reason brain shots, particularly frontal brain shots are so often missed on elephants. Shooting for a POI on the outside of the animal - be it a buff or an elephant or whatever - isn't nessecarily going to put the bullet where it needs to go. The deeper the depth of the real target, ie heart or brain..., the more citical the problem.

JPK

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Boomer
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Reged: 13/04/05
Posts: 144
Loc: The Hudson Bay Coast, Canada
Re: A little experiment.... [Re: shakari]
      #64707 - 26/10/06 11:58 PM

Perhaps the best advise I've seen on bullet placement comes from PH Andrew Dawson in the "Boddington on Buffalo" video. The system is fast and simple and works regardless of angle. Aim midway between the front legs come up a third of the body and you've got em. I watched that the first time and said, "Well, son-of-a-bitch!" Sometimes the best answers are the simplest.

--------------------

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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: A little experiment.... [Re: Boomer]
      #64713 - 27/10/06 01:08 AM

Those who hunt with bow and arrow from treestands would realize the problem better than gunhunters. It hadn't occurred to me as a problem until now.

Excellent point that the bigger thicker animal would magnify this problem signifigantly.Probably worse when you shoot at a buff above you and tend to shoot high on the external shoulder/chest instead of into the "core" heart lung region

Great Hunting tips on DG---

Gotta practice going for the "boiler room" in 3D on the DG, no matter what the up/down angle..

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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Grizzly
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Reged: 05/12/05
Posts: 359
Loc: Dallas, Texas, USA
Re: A little experiment.... [Re: hoppdoc]
      #64754 - 27/10/06 12:10 PM

I would have posteds sooner, but Johan's avatar had me spellbound for a while...

Certinly one aspect is imagining where the vital is in relation to the angle - 6 inches deep, a foot deep 2 feet deep. You need to visualize that, and it will in the future impact your point of aim. Bell undoubtedly had this down to a fine art. Yes, the brain is between the eyes on a frontal shot, but unless you are 12 feet off the ground, it is not a straight shot between the eyes, since the bullet follows the angle of aim. So if you shoot between an elephant's eyes at 10 meters, the shot will miss the brain which is a good 2 feet into the head.

The other aspect is that on any high or low angle shot, your bullet will shoot high. Kind of counterintuitive but high it goes. How high is a function of caliber, range, temperature, etc.

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