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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder
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COLDSTEEL
.224 member


Reged: 02/10/06
Posts: 20
Loc: Central PA
Need help with BP Double
      #63417 - 03/10/06 11:24 AM

Brothers: I have come into possession of a very nice 10-bore muzzleloading double rifle made in Birmingham, England. In order to put the arm to use, I need to know EVERYTHING I can learn about this great firearm. Any and ALL information you may like to share with me would be GREATLY appreciated. What I THINK I know is that I should start with round balls and 1-FG black powder. Let's take it from there. I anxiously await any and all replies. Regards to all. New member COLDSTEEL

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JohnTheGreek
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Reged: 16/11/04
Posts: 167
Loc: Cairo, Egypt
Re: Need help with BP Double [Re: COLDSTEEL]
      #63427 - 03/10/06 01:18 PM

First things first....we want photos! PLEASE! Second, Use Swiss powder and not Goex as Swiss more closely approximates the powder that existed when the rifle was built. Third, don't ever defile that rifle with Pyrodex! Finally, buy some Swiss 1.5 and try that first and, should you be unable to get that to regulate with the appropriate charge, probably between 6 and 8 drams (1 dram = 27.3 grains by volume) then step up to Swiss 2F.

That's the best advice I can offer you...except maybe that you should rid yourself of this ancient piece of junk! I'll happily spare you the trouble of finding a regulation load and give it a nice home.

Best,

John

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COLDSTEEL
.224 member


Reged: 02/10/06
Posts: 20
Loc: Central PA
Re: Need help with BP Double [Re: JohnTheGreek]
      #63458 - 03/10/06 09:51 PM

Dear John: Many thanks for your reply. I have just bought a good Digital camera, and will try and get good photos posted ASAP. I shoot a LOT of BP, and Swiss is my powder of choice. So far so good. A friend of mine (barrel maker John Getz) has a RB mold throwing a .768 RB. Do you think that would be a good projectile to start with? Regards. TD Addendum 10/3/06 A trip to my barrel-maker friend John has brought the following to light. The gun is, indeed, not a 10-bore at all. Measurements of the bore (the best we could do with available spuds and a mike)indicate tha this gun is a "tweener". That is, our measurements show it to be an 11-bore. Our calculations indicate a round-ball (twist measurement shows somewhere in the neighborhoodof 1-66" to 1-72")of about .728 to be close enough for starters. This will make the 9-3/4# gun a little more fun at the bench. ("Admission". I DO own a lead sled and intend to use it in this case study.) Regards Again. TD Addendum 10/17/06 Put the Jeff Tanner .728 mold to work today. Average weight of the balls is right at 570 grains. I think I have me here a BP .500 Nitro! What Fun!! Regards. TD

Edited by COLDSTEEL (18/10/06 12:00 PM)

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COLDSTEEL
.224 member


Reged: 02/10/06
Posts: 20
Loc: Central PA
Re: Need help with BP Double [Re: JohnTheGreek]
      #63670 - 06/10/06 11:06 PM

Here they are!
















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BillfromOregon
.333 member


Reged: 27/10/04
Posts: 254
Loc: Sweetwater, by God Texas
Re: Need help with BP Double [Re: COLDSTEEL]
      #63677 - 07/10/06 04:39 AM

Coldsteel: That is an outstanding example. I hope you approach load development with due caution, as I would hate to hear of anything going awry and damaging you or your very lovely double. For what it is worth, Baker reported using 10 drams of black in a No. 12, but does not give exact bullet weight. That seems like way too much powder to start with, even in a No. 11 with patched round ball.

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Need help with BP Double [Re: COLDSTEEL]
      #63679 - 07/10/06 06:47 AM

I am so freakin jealous.

nice rifle!


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Need help with BP Double [Re: COLDSTEEL]
      #63700 - 07/10/06 04:40 PM

Coldsteel:
In reply to:

I DO own a lead sled and intend to use it in this case study


Be aware that others have had VERY BAD experiences with a lead-sled, to the point of damaging a gun. Pretty sure it was reported on NE.com. Worth doing a search....

Nice firearm, BTW. Hope it performs to its best for you.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Need help with BP Double [Re: Marrakai]
      #63709 - 07/10/06 11:46 PM

I was so excited about the photos I completely missed the lead sled comment

Note also that you won't get that rifle to shoot to it's regulated point of impact via load development in a lead sled.

That gun won't hurt you.
If recoil becomes an issue, PM me and I'll arrange shipping to my place out here on the west coast!


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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COLDSTEEL
.224 member


Reged: 02/10/06
Posts: 20
Loc: Central PA
Re: Need help with BP Double [Re: tinker]
      #63726 - 08/10/06 12:08 PM

I want to thank Bill,tinker,and Marrakai for your replies to the post of pics and info concerning the double. My thoughts were to start with a charge in the neighborhood of five drams with the patched round ball and work toward regulation. I would be very happy to achieve groups of four shots(two from each barrel) into four inches @ 100 yds. Anyone care to comment on this? Info regarding the lead sled has been duly noted. Regards. COLDSTEEL

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BillfromOregon
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Reged: 27/10/04
Posts: 254
Loc: Sweetwater, by God Texas
Re: Need help with BP Double [Re: COLDSTEEL]
      #63980 - 14/10/06 02:31 AM

Coldsteel: Suggest you start with Fg for your initial series; even though it fouls a bit more, it is a bit easier in the pressure department, and when you get close to regulating, start chronographing. You can then match your regulating velocities with slightly less FFg if you wish, assuming you aren't seeing any pressure issues with your gun. Geez, I can't wait to see/hear how your beauty shoots.

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COLDSTEEL
.224 member


Reged: 02/10/06
Posts: 20
Loc: Central PA
Re: Need help with BP Double [Re: BillfromOregon]
      #64224 - 18/10/06 12:04 PM

Thanks again, Bill. Will keep you all posted, but progress may be a bit slow for now. Huntin' season you know. regards. TD

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DarylSModerator
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Need help with BP Double [Re: COLDSTEEL]
      #67004 - 14/12/06 05:51 AM

deleted

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (14/12/06 06:08 AM)

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DarylSModerator
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Posts: 26992
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Re: Need help with BP Double [Re: COLDSTEEL]
      #67450 - 20/12/06 04:31 AM

Coldsteel - I think you will find that gun (beautiful, btw) to be regulated for conicals. This conclusion is due to the sight arangement. Had it only the leaf sights, then I'd say, probably round ball. The addition of the ladder sight pretty much shows this double to be regulated for conicals. Now, I'd go ahead with testing using round ball though, due to the twist rates.
; I'd probably radius the crowns in order to allow loading and shooting a more snug ball/patch combo, than what the sharp crowns will allow. Sharp crowns are prone to cutting the patch on loading. Perhaps a wad first on top of the powder, then the patched ball might shoot OK. Your requirement of 4" at 100 yards may not be possible with those sharp crowns, but might be, with a good radius. Fine emery cloth and your thumb (or large bearing, then your thumbb) will do the job perfectly & look 'stock'.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Need help with BP Double [Re: DarylS]
      #67735 - 22/12/06 12:18 PM

Modify the crowns on a valuable vintage gun in that condition? You must be nuts!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Need help with BP Double [Re: Marrakai]
      #67746 - 22/12/06 02:44 PM

That rifle looks *really* nice.
But is it all Original Finish?
I somehow think the finish has seen some restoration at some time.
In line with that, I wonder what the muzzles looked like when it was handed over out of the builder's workshop.

Might they just have had chamfers or radii on day one?
Perhaps...


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Dphariss
.300 member


Reged: 18/04/06
Posts: 130
Loc: Montana
Re: Need help with BP Double [Re: DarylS]
      #67902 - 23/12/06 04:18 PM

Quote:

Coldsteel - I think you will find that gun (beautiful, btw) to be regulated for conicals. This conclusion is due to the sight arangement. Had it only the leaf sights, then I'd say, probably round ball. The addition of the ladder sight pretty much shows this double to be regulated for conicals. Now, I'd go ahead with testing using round ball though, due to the twist rates.
<Snip>



I am not sure the sights are definitive as a indicator of the conical, though it could be so.
George in English Guns & Rifles talks about round ball rifles of larger bores with all sorts of long range sights.
But the sight is pretty high for the round ball. As a barrel sight it would likely shoot to 600+ yards with that much elevation.

I wonder if the bores are slightly relieved at the muzzle and thus show a sharper edge than they might otherwise?

Dan

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COLDSTEEL
.224 member


Reged: 02/10/06
Posts: 20
Loc: Central PA
Re: Need help with BP Double [Re: DarylS]
      #68015 - 25/12/06 02:51 AM

To: Daryl, Tinker @ Dpharis: The wood on this gun has been refinished, and checkering re-cut. No doubt about that. The metal,I think, is original. The gun has been used a lot, as there is evidence of rod wear at the muzzles. We measured the twist at or about 1 in 72". Definitely not a heavy conical piece in my opinion. The last marking on the top of the ladder is 1000 (Meters ?), and I'm sure the crowns will not cut the patching. I won't get to the range till spring, but when I do, I'll definitely keep you all apprised of my findings. I'm really excited about working with this great old firearm. If only it could talk. Regards to all, and have a Very Merry Christmas, and a Happy and Prosperous New Year! COLDSTEEL

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DarylSModerator
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Need help with BP Double [Re: COLDSTEEL]
      #68051 - 25/12/06 12:44 PM

Coldsteel - thanks for the update on condition, etc. Dan is coredt, in that the grooves at the muzzle may already have some filing done, kind of a flaring, to allow loading a patched ball.
: With sights marked to 1000 yards, it MUST be for a short conical as a round ball that size will not travel 1,000 yards. I believe somewhere around 700 to 750 yards is the farthest a round ball will travel, if under .80. A .60 calibre round ball, launched at 35 degrees is supposed to have a maximum range of 600+ yards. I'll have to check this out on my ballistics program once I get home next week.
: In 10 bore, 72" twist is not unreasonable for a short conical bullet. Note that a conical twist in Britan was 72" & 78" in a .58 cal., ie: 500gr. conical, which was about 1-1/2 calibres long. Seyfried's (large)12 bore single with fully rifled barrel came with both round ball and conical moulds yet had a twist slower than 100". The Conical mould cast a bullet just over calibre long, but weighed over 800gr., similar to an 8 bore round ball.
: I might be wrong, but sighting to 1,000 yards certainly would be foolish on a round ball gun.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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COLDSTEEL
.224 member


Reged: 02/10/06
Posts: 20
Loc: Central PA
Re: Need help with BP Double [Re: DarylS]
      #68278 - 29/12/06 12:53 PM

Thanks, Daryl. I will explore the short conical if the round ball falls short of my expectations. I read as much of Seyfried's stuff as I can, and think I remember an article on it. Thanks for reminding me. HAPPY NEW YEAR! TD

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